Quote:What the F*#$? Libs are to blame for the faultering education in the United States? I'm sorry-who came up with "No Child Left Behind"? Oh that's right, Dubya did, and then he underfunded it by 27 billion dollars.
Liberals are the only ones willing to put any money into buying new textbooks, adding technology into classrooms and increasing pay for teachers. 20 years ago Reagan tried to kill Head Start (a program to help kids who were high risk for academic problems) and he tried eliminate the ENTIRE Dept. of Education. It seems to me that Conservatives like you are trying to get rid of public education.
As a student entering the classrooms to be a teacher, your comments are unbelieveably offensive-to say that libs don't care education. None of my conservative counter-parts would dare entire the urban "focus" schools-because those kids are "bad". They could care less about kids who have to support a family at age 16, and they care less about kids who have no one to go home too. Maybe you should think about that. The problem with our education system is that everyone can point out what is wrong and how we're failing, but then no one wants to come in and help. No one wants to support the students.
And one more thing...if we're so far behind in math and science education, why do so many forigen students come here to study math and engineering? :???: Oh, that's right-because we're leading the engineering field.
This has nothing to do with fox-hunting. But I can't stand this stupidity that has gone on. Chromeboomerang, you should be ashamed. It is people like you who continue to breed hate towards people you don't agree with. In the United States we have freedom of speech and freedom of belief. The Democratic Party is the oldest party in the United States, and it isn't going anywhere. This country hasn't been hurt by liberals, and it hasn't been hurt by conservatives-it has been hurt by people who are scared to hear from the other side of the aisle.
Hear, hear!
By the way, EVERY study that has EVER been done about Head Start shows that it works--it's one of the best programs the US has ever come up with. I know plenty of conservatives who support it (you have to be a really ideological not to), but since most of the cuts and proposed eliminations have come from the political right... the whole "blame the libs" rhetoric sound pretty ironic in this context.
There are some conservatives (and libertarians) who want to get rid of public education entirely, based partially on a fantasy that everybody was better educated before public education messed everything up. This is AMAZINGLY historically inaccurate--incontrovertible fact: before public education, most people were illiterate, after public education, most people are literate.
One more thing: Chromeboomerang--you mention lack of geographical knowledge as evidence that our educational system is declining. I'm sorry, but knowing a lot of both liberals and conservatives, I hate to stereotype, but in my experience, left-wing Americans (and left-wing areas of the country) tend to have far better geographical knowledge, on average, than their conservative counterparts. Of course, there are major exceptions to this, but I've met conservatives who literally couldn't tell Iran and Iraq apart, who thought we were at war with Saudi Arabia during the first gulf war, who mix up Japan and China (started talking about Tiananmen Square when I told them that I live in Japan), who refer to Africa as a "country" (not just George Bush!), who think that people speak "Latin" in Latin America (not just Dan Quayle), and who repeatedly confuse Mexicans and Spanish (this is like confusing Americans and British). There was a poll a few years back that showed that more than half of high-school graduates in Texas could not name the country that lay on the southern border of Texas--last time I checked, Texas was not a blue state!
I could go on, but I won't--suffice to say that from my experience it's pretty hypocritical to blame lack of geographic knowledge on "liberals."
Oh, BTW, speaking of which, "England" is NOT an island--England is ON an island, or PART OF an island, but there is no island called "England." Saying "England is an island" is like saying "The United States is a continent." GREAT BRITAIN is indeed an island, but Scotland and Wales are not part of England.
Edited By mabewa on 1188178837
& Goals 2000, also known as outcome based education, ( Clinton sponsored * backed), has the alltime worst statistical performance of any program in US history.
& again, you're forgetting Liberals even under Republican administrations have been in charge of education for last 30 yrs. Statement above still stands.
chromeboomerang Wrote:& Goals 2000, also known as outcome based education, ( Clinton sponsored * backed), has the alltime worst statistical performance of any program in US history.
& again, you're forgetting Liberals even under Republican administrations have been in charge of education for last 30 yrs. Statement above still stands.
No, the Department of Education is headed by President-Appointed people. During Reagan's years, it was Elizabeth Dole and she's definitely a Conservative.
Edited By Sydney on 1188435995
Quote:& Goals 2000, also known as outcome based education, ( Clinton sponsored * backed), has the all time worst statistical performance of any program in US history.
& again, you're forgetting Liberals even under Republican administrations have been in charge of education for last 30 yrs. Statement above still stands.
Dude, you can't even define the word "liberal" (it isn't capitalized, btw, unless you are talking about the name of a political party, as in, for example, the right-wing Japanese Liberal Democratic Party), so your claims of what "liberals" have or haven't been in control of are basically meaningless. To you, "liberal" seems to be "something I disagree with that isn't obviously politically right-wing." I almost envy your ability to simplify complex issues into liberal/conservative, but it really doesn't help understanding. Are you actually capable of simply debating issues?
Just to give you an example of how these things are not nearly so clear-cut as you're trying to make them: "outcome based education" is also known as "standards-based education," which is actually a CONSERVATIVE cause in most parts of the world (Maggie Thatcher was big on it, for example), and which was also popular among US Republicans until Clinton got on the bandwagon.
Most of the Republican opposition to Goals 2000 was based on a perceived lack of local educational control, not on the concept of outcomes-based education (when you think about it, whether or not the US Democrat party supports it, there is nothing "liberal" about outcomes-based education!).
Also, Bush's No Child Left Behind is basically an extension of Goals 2000, so has it suddenly became "conservative" because Bush supported it? Support and rebellion against No Child Left Behind has come from both the left and right, so can we classify it as left or right at all?
Big business has backed both Goals 2000 and No Child Left Behind, so what does that make those laws: liberal or conservative? Do we NEED to label it? Does that really help us understand anything?
In my experience, regardless of who originally voted for the laws in question, standards-based education has generally been supported by the more authoritarian-type right-wingers and left-wingers, and has been opposed by more libertarian right-wingers and left-wingers. In other words, it's no longer a clearly left or right issue, and never really was, despite whatever happens to be politically in vogue at the moment.
I'd love to debate education, immigration, gun control, the Iraq war, health care, etc., with anyone, but it's totally boring and meaningless to try to take every complex issue, put them into exactly two categories, "liberal" and "conservative" (two words that aren't even USED CORRECTLY as synonyms with "left" and "right"), and then pretend that everyone is either pro or con. The world doesn't work that way.
Edited By mabewa on 1188439640
^ You're right. My appologies. :unclesam:
"No, the Department of Education is headed by President-Appointed people."
Irrelevant, only 1 person. The bulk of persons involved in US education policy making & administration have been predominately Democrats over last 30 yrs.
& I think it bears mentioning the areas of the US that do the best are places like Chicago, North Dakota, which are mostly Conservative areas. State education boards have to be taken into consideration, not just Presidential appointees who do not have an iron grip on state level education policy making & administration.
"Also, Bush's No Child Left Behind is basically an extension of Goals 2000, so has it suddenly became "conservative" because Bush supported it? "
This is true, however it's creation was done in prior administration's tenure, & again it's implementation countrywide would still be done largely by Democrats.
but it's totally boring and meaningless to try to take every complex issue, put them into exactly two categories, "liberal" and "conservative"
& please note, I have not done this. We are chatting a specific subject, not many across the boards. Comment dismissed.
"so your claims of what "liberals" have or haven't been in control of are basically meaningless"
Um, no. it is well known by millions of intelligent people that this is the case regarding education in the US.
Edited By chromeboomerang on 1188447485
