+- Pink Floyd Online Forums (http://www.pinkfloydonline.com/forums)
+-- Forum: The Band (/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Roger Waters (/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: An Open Letter to Roger on 9/11 - Remember the motherless children (/showthread.php?tid=560)
- Jumpy - 09-11-2006 06:30 AM
Dear Roger,
I know that you are tech savvy, so on the off chance that you visit this site and read this message, I thought I'd write you here.
Roger, I've been a fan of your music for more than a quarter century. So believe me when I say I understand and appreciate your subject matter. I get it: War is bad.
Yet, I await the Pittsburgh stop on your current tour with mixed emotions, as I am disappointed by what I read in reviews of earlier shows on this tour. Frankly, I am angered as I think about your current show as it relates to this fifth anniversary of the 9/11 acts of war against the United States.
Please know that I am not a supporter of President Bush. In fact, I voted against him. Twice. I also believe that Bush has frequently been disingenuous when it comes to the "war on terror" -- specifically in regards to the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
At the same time, I believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was necessary and the right thing to do, given that the Taliban was giving safe haven to the plotters of the 9/11 attacks. So in short, I don't believe Bush is all bad; at times, he's had his priorities straight when crafting the difficult U.S. response to this unprecedented act of war.
I use the phrase "act of war" with a purpose, because of your mixed media messages and lyrics which suggest our President is a war criminal. If you are going to do that, why not use the opportunity to condemn those who started this war? Where are the images of Osama bin Laden? Where are the images of Mohammed Atta? Where are the images of the other pilots of those fateful 9/11 jetliners? Condemming Bush for his sometimes misguided response to acts of war is like condemming F.D.R. for Hiroshima, while giving Adolph Hitler a free pass.
You have written countless moving songs, or "stories," about your feelings related to growing up without your father who was lost in World War II. Then please, Roger, have some empathy to the motherless and fatherless victims of the 9/11 attacks. Have some feelings for the 7-year-old son of the firefighter who was crushed by tons of falling steel and concrete. Have some understanding for the 5-year-old daugher of the accountant who felt his "tears evaporate" as he literally melted from the heat of a missile launched by the cold heartless hands of Osama bin Laden. I fear that your current stance ignores many victims of this war -- those right here on U.S. soil.
Of course, as I said earlier, I'm only reacting to others' reviews of your shows, and I will wait to view it and make up my own mind. But if the reviews are accurate, I'm afraid I will be left with no other options than to give you a piece of my mind on Sept. 24. Regards,
A fan
Edited By Jumpy on 1157990155
- mabewa - 09-11-2006 07:08 AM
You've made some good points, Jumpy, and I agree with much of what you've written.
However, I think I know what Roger's reaction would be: he would say that the victims of 9/11 are given voice and tribute in numerous, myriad ways in American society. The people who Roger sings for, in contrast, are invisible, and many people feel that they are not even deserving of a voice at all.
As an American who was living abroad when 9/11 happen, I know that the victims of 9/11 were extensively mourned worldwide. Meanwhile, there are atrocities and disasters going on in the world that kill far more people, yet receive far less attention. The sad truth of the matter is that there are many millions of children around the world who have lost their parents as a result of war. There were many, many 9/11 songs recorded by many artists around the world, and perhaps Roger feels that his voice is more needed elsewhere. After all, the 9/11 victims will certainly not be forgotten, but who writes songs for all the other innocent victims of acts of war?
Edited By mabewa on 1157987778
- spacement - 09-11-2006 07:59 AM
Hey Jumpy, good points, however there are mothers like Cindy Sheehan who wouldn't agree with you. Not all who lost their loved ones fall in line behind Bush. If Roger is only going after Bush in his video images than things should not change. There are two sides to every argument and Roger doesn't seem to be on your side so let him voice his own opinion. The opinion of a fatherless child.
- pakistanifloyd - 09-11-2006 12:01 PM
Jumpy Wrote:Quote:At the same time, I believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was necessary and the right thing to do, given that the Taliban was giving safe haven to the plotters of the 9/11 attacks. So in short, I don't believe Bush is all bad; at times, he's had his priorities straight when crafting the difficult U.S. response to this unprecedented act of war.
Did you know who backed Taliban when Russians were standing tall? Did you know the plan of attacking Iraq was already on Bush govt. table highlighted by Rumsfield even before 9/11?
[quote]
I use the phrase "act of war" with a purpose, because of your mixed media messages and lyrics which suggest our President is a war criminal.
Yes President Bush is a war criminal just like Hitler was, just like Bin Laden!
Quote:why not use the opportunity to condemn those who started this war? Where are the images of Osama bin Laden?
Do you remember Roger Waters comments when all this happened? he said when you hurt someone you expect revenge! its a common perception in people i.e things started from 9/11, noway! history is there go & study it, understand the circumstances which created terrorists like Al-Qaeda.
Quote:Roger, have some empathy to the motherless and fatherless victims of the 9/11 attacks. Have some feelings for the 7-year-old son of the firefighter who was crushed by tons of falling steel and concrete. Have some understanding for the 5-year-old daugher of the accountant who felt his "tears evaporate" as he literally melted from the heat of a missile launched by the cold heartless hands of Osama bin Laden.
Who will write for millions of non-American children who died in Bosnia, Palestine, Kashmir, Iraq, Lebanon? They died in worst conditions, how can you forget 5 yr old girl shot straight on her heart by an Israeli tank? Its just a everyday story there, unfortunately we're not concerned with that part of the World, isn't it! So, out of America, a World exists and humans exists.
Is gentleness too much for us
Should gentleness be filed along with empathy
We feel for someone else's child
Every time a smart bomb does its sums and gets it wrong
Someone else's child dies and equities in defence rise
America, America, please hear us when we call
You got hip-hop, be-bop, hustle and bustle
You got Atticus Finch
You got Jane Russell
You got freedom of speech
You got great beaches, wildernesses and malls
Don't let the might, the Christian right, **** it all up
For you and the rest of the world
- scalzmoney - 09-11-2006 07:34 PM
Jumpy,
Sorry, but you're an idiot. Roger's stance against the war in Iraq and anywhere else is not a dishonor to the dead. Continuing bloodshed does not honor the dead either. And I know the talking points you are reading. Bush said that 'leaving before the mission is done dishonors the lives of those who died in the war.' So because some have died, we cannot bring the boys back home before they are killed ?? Come on, Jumpy, I know you are smarter than that.
As for the children, again you are using a false premise and exploiting the deaths of some to justify killing some more. Bush isn't even going after the people who are responsible for 9/11. He isn't concerned with a 5 year-old with a tear in her eye. He and his cronies are using an illegal war to profiteer all over the middle east. Blow it all up so they can charge billions to rebuild it. Wake up.
Quote:Have some understanding for the 5-year-old daugher of the accountant who felt his "tears evaporate" as he literally melted from the heat of a missile launched by the cold heartless hands of Osama bin Laden.
What are you talking about? Killing some more?
If you don't understand that agression breeds agression, that an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind, then I can't explain it to you.
- mabewa - 09-11-2006 11:11 PM
Jumpy is trying pretty hard to express his opinion, and it's a quite nuanced one. I really see no reason in calling him an "idiot." Also, nowhere in his post did he say "dishonor the dead." He said IGNORE the dead... that's a very different story. For the record, I think he's making a valid point, but I also think that Roger is justified in choosing to focus on the forgotten dead. Anyway, it's not something we have to insult each other over about. I got pretty mad at the person who called Roger a "coward," but Jumpy isn't making insults, he's trying to express his point of view.
Edited By mabewa on 1158045321
- scalzmoney - 09-12-2006 01:48 AM
Listen Mabewa,
Within Jumpy's post you may find truth, but I find it false. I'm not saying he can't say it if he wants to, I'm just saying he's wrong.
To say to an artist, 'hey buddy, I respect ya, but could you tone it down a little' is to silence their creative voice. That's wrong. And I'm not going to just say, 'good job, I agree with some of what you said'. I don't sit here and tell Toby Keith what to say at his shows so I'm not going to do it to Roger.
Suggesting that Roger feature images of Osama Bin Laden misses the point. He's not marching around appeasing our enemies. He knows what happened on 9/11. He lives in freakin' New York!
Isn't it worse to have a president who says 'vote for me or it will all happen again.'
Mabewa, do you really think the firemen who were poisoned at ground zero are all fans of Bush? What has been done for them? What about the Jersey Girls? Women who voted for Bush, and lost their husbands on 9/11. They had to lobby Congress to get the 9/11 Commission started. They are the families Jumpy is talking about. You lost a loved one. You don't have to kiss the president's ass forever. Do you have any opinion on the subsance of this topic or are you just going to keep telling me not to use bad words?
The fact is that Roger's been on tour for several months, doing the same show, so starting threads about it in September because suddenly you remembered 9/11 doesn't make you a genius in my book.
Jumpy also makes the fatal error of connecting 'the War' in Iraq with 9/11. Make no mistake, that's where we are doing the majority of our fighting. That's where almost as many soldiers have died as did on 9/11. What is right about that? What has it solved except to piss off the entire rest of the world at us.
Okay, so Jumpy may not be an idiot, but he's ignorant. Writing little 'open letters' that really ask for nothing, except for someone to explain to him what is really going on in this world.
Maybe Bin Laden should be shown with Bush on Roger's stage. Their families have been in business together for 30 years. Look it up.
Bush Sr. was with Osama's brother ON 9/11/01! Look it up.
Seriously, everybody. Get your facts straight, go read a book and then we'll debate Roger/Bush/9/11. Cheers!
Edited By scalzmoney on 1158059668
- Jumpy - 09-12-2006 06:04 AM
Scalzmoney -- One thing that I get really frustrated with saying over and over and over again is that I'm NOT a fan of Bush. Call me an "idiot" if you want, but it really makes me wonder if you or any of my critics is reading my letter entirely, or simply scimming it.
So (sigh), I'll say it again: I'm not a fan of Bush. Either of them. I didn't vote for them in 1988, 2000, or 2004.
Oh, yeah and by the way... (here I'm desperately hoping that repitition, if nothing else, can get through to you), I'm not a fan of President Bush.
- scalzmoney - 09-12-2006 06:30 AM
Jumpy Wrote:Dear Roger,I have read an re-read your post, Jumpy. And I get it.
I know that you are tech savvy, so on the off chance that you visit this site and read this message, I thought I'd write you here.
Roger, I've been a fan of your music for more than a quarter century. So believe me when I say I understand and appreciate your subject matter. I get it: War is bad.
Yet, I await the Pittsburgh stop on your current tour with mixed emotions, as I am disappointed by what I read in reviews of earlier shows on this tour. Frankly, I am angered as I think about your current show as it relates to this fifth anniversary of the 9/11 acts of war against the United States.
Please know that I am not a supporter of President Bush. In fact, I voted against him. Twice. I also believe that Bush has frequently been disingenuous when it comes to the "war on terror" -- specifically in regards to the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
At the same time, I believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was necessary and the right thing to do, given that the Taliban was giving safe haven to the plotters of the 9/11 attacks. So in short, I don't believe Bush is all bad; at times, he's had his priorities straight when crafting the difficult U.S. response to this unprecedented act of war.
I use the phrase "act of war" with a purpose, because of your mixed media messages and lyrics which suggest our President is a war criminal. If you are going to do that, why not use the opportunity to condemn those who started this war? Where are the images of Osama bin Laden? Where are the images of Mohammed Atta? Where are the images of the other pilots of those fateful 9/11 jetliners? Condemming Bush for his sometimes misguided response to acts of war is like condemming F.D.R. for Hiroshima, while giving Adolph Hitler a free pass.
You have written countless moving songs, or "stories," about your feelings related to growing up without your father who was lost in World War II. Then please, Roger, have some empathy to the motherless and fatherless victims of the 9/11 attacks. Have some feelings for the 7-year-old son of the firefighter who was crushed by tons of falling steel and concrete. Have some understanding for the 5-year-old daugher of the accountant who felt his "tears evaporate" as he literally melted from the heat of a missile launched by the cold heartless hands of Osama bin Laden. I fear that your current stance ignores many victims of this war -- those right here on U.S. soil.
Of course, as I said earlier, I'm only reacting to others' reviews of your shows, and I will wait to view it and make up my own mind. But if the reviews are accurate, I'm afraid I will be left with no other options than to give you a piece of my mind on Sept. 24. Regards,
A fan
My point was not to call you names, though that seems to be what you've focused on. My point was to knock down your argument with facts. I want you to try to rebut anything I've said so far if you disagree with me.
First, 9/11 is not the subject of Roger's 'Leaving Beiruit'.
Second, the war Bush started, the war on terror has nothing to do with avenging 9/11. If it did, we wouldn't be occupying Iraq.
Third, neither Roger, you, me or anyone else is required to embrace Bush and his policies or even be sympathetic to him because of 9/11. Opposing political parties almost NEVER admit to liking the current person in power.
Fourth, to disagree with and even protest the war does not 'forget', 'dishonor' or 'whatever' 9/11 and its victims (families included).
Fifth, images of Mohamed Atta or any other hijacker have no place on a screen on a stage at a rock show. What sense does that make to you? Those men are inconsiquential in the history of it all. Roger's song is not about them anyway.
Sixth, it is not wrong to criticize you. You offered up your point-of-view, you challenge Roger Waters like he has to answer to you. Sell your ticket. Don't go. No one is forcing you.
Seventh, what part of what 'review' set you off. Is it because someone claimed someone was booing? Are you frightened?Have you never heard of 'Leaving Beiruit' before now?
Last, what is a 'fan of Bush' anyway? I'm not a fan of Nick Mason, really. I do like his band Pink Floyd a lot, though.
Edited By scalzmoney on 1158071655
- Jumpy - 09-12-2006 07:07 AM
OK... I don't even like Bush. But I like Nick Mason. I may even be a Mason fan. He gets a lot of crap for his drumming... but I think he's OK. I really enjoy watching his work on the "Pompeii" video. :D
As for much of your previous post, I mostly agree with it, believe it or not... even your assertion that you have every right to take exception to my point of view. That's what a message board or free society is all about.
So, again having said that I mostly agree with everything in your previous post, I was going to start a point-by-point response to a couple of your enumerated points. But really, I feel like I said everything I had to say in my initial open letter to Roger.
I suppose I'll amplify a few points. One is, I can't even remember whose review I'm reacting to. As I said in my initial letter, I will wait until I see Roger in person, but I'm responding to earlier reviews posted here.
Two, I'm not "frightened" about anything related to the show. "Disappointed" was the word I chose, and I'll stick with that. I also said in another thread that, in my opinion, Roger's work loses its impact when he starts calling out people like Reagan, Haig, and "Maggie" by name. It cheapens the work and makes it less timeless. It's a big reason why, despite their very similar themes, "The Wall" is one of the most popular albums of all time, while "The Final Cut" mostly lives in obscurity -- cherished by some Floyd fans, but not music fans in general. Again, I'm disappointed.
Finally, Scalz, it's interesting that you don't find it offensive to use an image of Bush on the screen, yet you say images of Mohammed Atta "have no place on a screen on a stage at a rock show." Hmmmmmmm... what's that about? ???
- mabewa - 09-12-2006 07:47 AM
I think Scalzmoney is trying to say that Mohommed Atta isn't important enough to deserve a picture. And, I agree with that. The 9/11 bombers were all chumps, being manipulated for by a much greater evil. I think a picture of Bin Laden would be quite appropriate in a gallery of evildoers, but not Atta.
Scalzmoney--I think you're not reading people's posts carefully enough before you react. You've spent a lot of words in your post below trying to convince me of the evils of Bush, and you're totally preaching to the choir. As far as I can tell, you're more or less preaching to the choir when it comes to Jumpy, too.
In truth, I'm absolutely shocked and horrified by the damage Bush is doing to my native country and the entire world--it's like a bad dream that never stops. I'm a pretty forgiving person, and I might soften on Bush a LITTLE, if he didn't keep trying to prove an utterly bogus and thoroughly disproved link between 9/11 and Iraq, comparing opponents of the war to Nazi appeasers, and all other kinds of shameless, scumbag tactics.
Hell, to get into another issue entirely, I'm even angrier about his stance on global warming, which which I think in a few decades will, unfortunately, make terrorism look like a trifling episode in retrospect. Even the Pentagon, hardly a nest of tree-hugging environmentalists, issued a report on global warming a couple of years back that was far scarier than anything any environmental group has ever come up with, and here's Bush hiding his head in the sand and hararrasing government scientists for reporting the facts.
Make no mistake about it: history is going to squash the Bush legacy like a cockroach under the wheels of a tank. It's no longer a question of "if" but simply "when." The most horrible thing is that we are letting him gravely damage our country and the world in the meantime. Yes, he IS worse than Bin Laden--not because he's a more evil man than Bin Laden is (I think that Bin Laden is actually far more evil at heart) but simply because Bush is the head of the most powerful country in the world, and he is far beyond wrong for that position--he's an complete disaster.
With that in mind, I love Roger's "save all of our bacon, vote Democrat" thing, and then "impeach Bush" on the ass of the pig, because it hits the nail on the head. In the fairly unlikely event that the Dems win both houses of Congress (most likely, they'll win back one), Bush will probably be impeached, and that's the single best thing that could happen to Planet Earth at this point.
So, yeah, as you can see, I'm not at all fond of Bush. But, Jumpy is still making a valid point, and you're jumping on someone who is trying to use his brain, while far too many people have theirs completely turned off. One of the best things about the American left is that we actually allow people to have different points of view rather than having "talking points" which everyone repeats like robots. And, while our disunity makes us weaker in the short run, in the long run, it's exactly why America needs us so desperately at this point. We really need people to be using their brains, even if it leads them to positions that we don't agree with.
Edited By mabewa on 1158076136
- scalzmoney - 09-12-2006 08:35 AM
Okay, correct me if I'm wrong.
Jumpy is suggesting Roger put the faces of highjackers into his show.
I disagree. His show, his song is not about 9/11. That is why I am 'jumping' all over Jumpy. His assertion is moot.
Jumpy, would you like Rog to write a song about 9/11?
Jumpy it seems like you are just asking, 'Pwease, Mr. Woger Waters, don't make fun of the pwesident.'
I disagree. Its his perogative. He is not bashing Bush in the context of 9/11. He saying he's a bad leader, which you agree with, so why are we arguing?
I mean really, is that the point of your letter? To ask Roger to change his show?
My point is, you know that won't happen. But you come here anyway, to a Roger Waters message board to pick nits.
Was that the point of your 'letter'?
Is it really because you think Roger is not nice? Is that what it comes down to?
I'm open to any opinon, Mabewa, and you support yours well. But I still want to know what Jumpy expects out of his 'letter'.
- Jumpy - 09-12-2006 08:50 AM
Yes, I wrote the letter to politely ask Roger to change the show. Duh! Like ... I ... said ... I heard he is tech savvy. I wouldn't be surprised if her surfs the web to learn what fans think. Is he likely to change his show because of my letter? No. Is he likely to change his show because of negative fan reactions? Probably not. In fact, any controversy resulting from this would generate publicity. And publicity helps sell tickets.
I am here "to pick nits" you say? Are you British? (You say "we" are occupying Iraq, but I can't tell where you're from.) Perhaps some of this debate is rooted in some sort of cultural difference in the way Brits and Americans react to art and public performances. I have heard the British are more restrained in their reactions.
You know scalz, I am a sports fan, too. If my favorite football team runs off a series of boneheaded plays, I will boo them. I paid for my ticket, and I feel it's my right to boo. My booing doesn't mean I don't like the team any more. That doesn't even mean I won't enjoy the game as a whole. I can express my displeasure with a portion of the event, yet leave having enjoyed the event as a whole. Those of us with a complicated range of emotions can do that.
Edited By Jumpy on 1158081098
- scalzmoney - 09-12-2006 09:49 AM
It's cool, Jumpy. I still don't agree with you, but I see where you're coming from. I just think you're wasting your time.
I get mad at my favorite teams, too. I listen to sports talk radio, too. I find it interesting the way the hosts and callers will advise the coaches, owners and managers as if they have some power or more experience than them. They'll tell a coach to bench the million-dollar star of the team because they're in a slump. Well, logic should tell them that the star player puts butts in the seats and keeps the team on tv and in the papers. Unless they're injured, they play. But the fan wants to punish the guy.
You and I are fans. I have suggestions for Roger, too. Like put out a new album already! Yours are different. Whatever. I envy you going to his show. I saw Rog in '99. It was a great show. I just hope you forget the hype and enjoy it. Remember, reading about music is like dancing about architechture. Or as Billy Joel said, 'you can't get the sound from a story in a magazine.'
BTW- I'm American! Ha! Loved that you'd think I was a Brit. They're responsible for the language after all. In my line of work you have to be a stickler for proper English.
Edited By scalzmoney on 1158083741
- Skol - 09-12-2006 09:51 AM
Jumpy Wrote:Yes, I wrote the letter to politely ask Roger to change the show. Duh! Like ... I ... said ... I heard he is tech savvy. I wouldn't be surprised if her surfs the web to learn what fans think. Is he likely to change his show because of my letter? No. Is he likely to change his show because of negative fan reactions? Probably not. In fact, any controversy resulting from this would generate publicity. And publicity helps sell tickets.If you don't like it, don't go. Simple as that.
I am here "to pick nits" you say? Are you British? (You say "we" are occupying Iraq, but I can't tell where you're from.) Perhaps some of this debate is rooted in some sort of cultural difference in the way Brits and Americans react to art and public performances. I have heard the British are more restrained in their reactions.
You know scalz, I am a sports fan, too. If my favorite football team runs off a series of boneheaded plays, I will boo them. I paid for my ticket, and I feel it's my right to boo. My booing doesn't mean I don't like the team any more. That doesn't even mean I won't enjoy the game as a whole. I can express my displeasure with a portion of the event, yet leave having enjoyed the event as a whole. Those of us with a complicated range of emotions can do that.
It's Roger's show, he is the artist and he writes songs based on those individuals who don't have a voice when it comes to the western view of war. Who in the west is going to remember all the Iraqi's who were killed in cold blood because of the pack of lies our leaders, the men who we trust to rule our countries, told us.
I'm not getting involved in a Brits v Yanks slagging match but i'd say us British understand the fact that people will have opposing views to ours. I'm not painting every American as intolerant but I do think it's more rampant in the US than UK.
If Roger is the person I think he is and he does read your letter he'll just be more determined to go on with the show the way it is. He wont change it.
- floydianyid - 09-12-2006 10:46 AM
Jumpy Wrote:Scalzmoney -- One thing that I get really frustrated with saying over and over and over again is that I'm NOT a fan of Bush. Call me an "idiot" if you want, but it really makes me wonder if you or any of my critics is reading my letter entirely, or simply scimming it.Its not the if you voted or if you support bush its the value of American life which seems to mean much more than the value of life from other regions.
So (sigh), I'll say it again: I'm not a fan of Bush. Either of them. I didn't vote for them in 1988, 2000, or 2004.
Oh, yeah and by the way... (here I'm desperately hoping that repitition, if nothing else, can get through to you), I'm not a fan of President Bush.
I find Americans to be very insular, its just a perception but of course I may be wrong.
I think Roger is entitled to write and sing about whatever he likes and thats his freedom of being an artist.
Edited By floydianyid on 1158086938
- Jumpy - 09-12-2006 11:05 AM
scalzmoney Wrote:I envy you going to his show. I saw Rog in '99. It was a great show. I just hope you forget the hype and enjoy it.Funny you should say that. I have no idea why he's coming to Pittsburgh (and Cleveland). He's only coming to a handfull of cities, and he selects Pittsburgh? But I'm not complaining about that. I definitely expect to have a great time.
- scalzmoney - 09-12-2006 11:32 AM
floydianyid Wrote:Its not the if you voted or if you support bush its the value of American life which seems to mean much more than the value of life from other regions.I don't think anyone's made a value judgement on human life here.
I find Americans to be very insular, its just a perception but of course I may be wrong.
I think Roger is entitled to write and sing about whatever he likes and thats his freedom of being an artist.
I feel horrible about the loss of life in Iraq, mainly because we caused it.
People say, 'but Saddam murdered his own people!' So that makes it okay to go warring over there and murder tens of thousands more?
On 9/11/01 there was a coordinated attack on our country. We mourn those lost on that day. If it seems like we are taking it hard, its because its never happened before.
- QueenPinkWhoZep - 09-12-2006 01:18 PM
pakistanifloyd Wrote:I hope you never come to america.....and if you do, come pay me a visit, i have something for you....for you people who complain about the war in iraq, you should all be taken to a field and #$@$%Jumpy Wrote:Quote:At the same time, I believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was necessary and the right thing to do, given that the Taliban was giving safe haven to the plotters of the 9/11 attacks. So in short, I don't believe Bush is all bad; at times, he's had his priorities straight when crafting the difficult U.S. response to this unprecedented act of war.
Did you know who backed Taliban when Russians were standing tall? Did you know the plan of attacking Iraq was already on Bush govt. table highlighted by Rumsfield even before 9/11?
[quote]
I use the phrase "act of war" with a purpose, because of your mixed media messages and lyrics which suggest our President is a war criminal.
Yes President Bush is a war criminal just like Hitler was, just like Bin Laden!
Quote:why not use the opportunity to condemn those who started this war? Where are the images of Osama bin Laden?
Do you remember Roger Waters comments when all this happened? he said when you hurt someone you expect revenge! its a common perception in people i.e things started from 9/11, noway! history is there go & study it, understand the circumstances which created terrorists like Al-Qaeda.
Quote:Roger, have some empathy to the motherless and fatherless victims of the 9/11 attacks. Have some feelings for the 7-year-old son of the firefighter who was crushed by tons of falling steel and concrete. Have some understanding for the 5-year-old daugher of the accountant who felt his "tears evaporate" as he literally melted from the heat of a missile launched by the cold heartless hands of Osama bin Laden.
Who will write for millions of non-American children who died in Bosnia, Palestine, Kashmir, Iraq, Lebanon? They died in worst conditions, how can you forget 5 yr old girl shot straight on her heart by an Israeli tank? Its just a everyday story there, unfortunately we're not concerned with that part of the World, isn't it! So, out of America, a World exists and humans exists.
Is gentleness too much for us
Should gentleness be filed along with empathy
We feel for someone else's child
Every time a smart bomb does its sums and gets it wrong
Someone else's child dies and equities in defence rise
America, America, please hear us when we call
You got hip-hop, be-bop, hustle and bustle
You got Atticus Finch
You got Jane Russell
You got freedom of speech
You got great beaches, wildernesses and malls
Don't let the might, the Christian right, **** it all up
For you and the rest of the world
- Sydney - 09-12-2006 01:25 PM
QueenPinkWhoZep Wrote:I hope you never come to america.....and if you do, come pay me a visit, i have something for you....for you people who complain about the war in iraq, you should all be taken to a field and #$@$%You know what I love about America? I love that little thing called Freedom of Expression. I love that Jefferson (borrowing from Locke and Voltaire) said that all men were equally entitled to those rights to think, and express themselves, without the fear of being shot in some field. Though if you would like to live in a country where dissenters are shot in fields I can give a great list of places to go, such as Bosnia, Uganda, Sudan, The Congo, Iran, China, Cuba, and the list goes on and on....
With the exception of Cuba, I'm pretty sure you can get a plane ticket to any of those places.
Edited By Sydney on 1158110274
- pakistanifloyd - 09-12-2006 05:09 PM
QueenPinkWhoZep Wrote:I hope you never come to america.....and if you do, come pay me a visit, i have something for you....
So, what have you got for me ? Guantanamo Bay ? That's what I expect from pro-Bush folks (I have few American friends and they are certainly not like you so I won't say all Americans got small brain like you or George Bush or those Texas guys)
Quote:for you people who complain about the war in iraq, you should all be taken to a field and #$@$%
Come to me Mr. and I'll take you to Roger Waters, he'll sing for you:
There's one in the spotlight
He don't look right to me
Get him up against the wall
The thing is you're one of those who think 9/11 started everything and people like you blindly support war criminals like George Bush/Hitler, you guys watch Fox news pro-Bush channels which hides the secrets of 9/11 goverment's inside job! Once again for you folks, Rumsfield already had this IRAQ WAR PLAN before 9/11, It has nothing to do with the 9/11 revenge, and what revenge?
I won't invite you to Pakistan because you must have this perception we live in mountains, we got guns in our hands etc etc thats what your media shows! Get out of that World of yours, the World is different and truth is out there, go and investigate it, learn the causes of terrorism and work out to make this place safer from Bush-Qaeda squad! But if you'll like to come I say your most welcome, I guarantee you'll be safe, I'll take you to Pink Floyd tribute concert where Pakistan & South Asias best guitarists perform. Will take you out for nice dinner full of asian food!
I might have quoted Roger Waters lyrics which bashes America, but I respect every American and every Westener just the way I respect my own people. Roger Waters is not attacking America here, just attacking the Bush-Rumsfield-Cheney-Rice team which have been planning these things from the 70s.
May God show light to the blind!
May God bless this World!
- wish_you_were_here - 09-12-2006 05:25 PM
Quote:Funny you should say that. I have no idea why he's coming to Pittsburgh (and Cleveland). He's only coming to a handfull of cities, and he selects Pittsburgh? But I'm not complaining about that. I definitely expect to have a great time..
Im upset he decided to do one city in the UK and for only one day, considering he is from here, he does loads of cities in america but just one gig here in the UK? Gilmour did 3 major cities (London, Manchester - which i went to :-) and Glasgow). You lot in America are lucky.
- mabewa - 09-12-2006 05:34 PM
Quote:I hope you never come to america.....and if you do, come pay me a visit, i have something for you....for you people who complain about the war in iraq, you should all be taken to a field and #$@$%
Now, THIS is the kind of person who we have a problem with in the US. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough mental hospitals to fit all of these kind of wanna-be fascist wingnuts.
First, one thing I've noticed about your ilk: you all talk big from behind the safety of yer computer screens, but you tend to be much meeker in real life. Maybe it's because if you actually go around attacking people on basis of their religion, race or political beliefs, you tend you get locked up or worse. Kinda sucks, don't it?
Second, should I, and the 60% of Americans who don't agree with the war in Iraq should be "taken to a field and #$@$%"??? Wow, you are going to have to kill a LOT of people, Adolf.
You obviously have NO understanding what our Founding Fathers fought and died for. You should have moved to Saddam's Iraq while you still had a chance... when he invaded Iran and killed hundreds of thousands of Iranians, you would have been blissfully free of having to listen to any criticism of the war whatsover. Is that what you want for the US? I have good news for you: there are still a number of dictatorships left in the world, and I invite you to move to one immediately.
One more thing: what about the Republicans that gave Saddam money, computers, helicopters, nerve gas components, etc., in the 80's? Should they be punished as well? Or, in your dreamed-of fascist state, do those people get off scot-free, while the ordinary citizens who say things like "Maybe we should have left Iraq alone and gone after the people who actually attacked us" get "taken to a field and #$@$%." Nice.
Among other things, you obviously have failed to understand ANYTHING that Pink Floyd and Roger Waters are about.
Oh, BTW, you like Lep Zep, huh? Have you, by chance, bothered to listen to Robert Plant's latest SOLO ALBUM, by chance? "Freedom Fries"? Yer in for a real treat, chump, that's all I can say.
Edited By mabewa on 1158114272
- QueenPinkWhoZep - 09-12-2006 10:36 PM
pakistanifloyd Wrote:inside job? explainQueenPinkWhoZep Wrote:I hope you never come to america.....and if you do, come pay me a visit, i have something for you....
So, what have you got for me ? Guantanamo Bay ? That's what I expect from pro-Bush folks (I have few American friends and they are certainly not like you so I won't say all Americans got small brain like you or George Bush or those Texas guys)
Quote:for you people who complain about the war in iraq, you should all be taken to a field and #$@$%
Come to me Mr. and I'll take you to Roger Waters, he'll sing for you:
There's one in the spotlight
He don't look right to me
Get him up against the wall
The thing is you're one of those who think 9/11 started everything and people like you blindly support war criminals like George Bush/Hitler, you guys watch Fox news pro-Bush channels which hides the secrets of 9/11 goverment's inside job! Once again for you folks, Rumsfield already had this IRAQ WAR PLAN before 9/11, It has nothing to do with the 9/11 revenge, and what revenge?
I won't invite you to Pakistan because you must have this perception we live in mountains, we got guns in our hands etc etc thats what your media shows! Get out of that World of yours, the World is different and truth is out there, go and investigate it, learn the causes of terrorism and work out to make this place safer from Bush-Qaeda squad! But if you'll like to come I say your most welcome, I guarantee you'll be safe, I'll take you to Pink Floyd tribute concert where Pakistan & South Asias best guitarists perform. Will take you out for nice dinner full of asian food!
I might have quoted Roger Waters lyrics which bashes America, but I respect every American and every Westener just the way I respect my own people. Roger Waters is not attacking America here, just attacking the Bush-Rumsfield-Cheney-Rice team which have been planning these things from the 70s.
May God show light to the blind!
May God bless this World!
- QueenPinkWhoZep - 09-12-2006 10:41 PM
mabewa Wrote:No i didnt listen to his solo album becuase he is **** without pageQuote:I hope you never come to america.....and if you do, come pay me a visit, i have something for you....for you people who complain about the war in iraq, you should all be taken to a field and #$@$%
Now, THIS is the kind of person who we have a problem with in the US. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough mental hospitals to fit all of these kind of wanna-be fascist wingnuts.
First, one thing I've noticed about your ilk: you all talk big from behind the safety of yer computer screens, but you tend to be much meeker in real life. Maybe it's because if you actually go around attacking people on basis of their religion, race or political beliefs, you tend you get locked up or worse. Kinda sucks, don't it?
Second, should I, and the 60% of Americans who don't agree with the war in Iraq should be "taken to a field and #$@$%"??? Wow, you are going to have to kill a LOT of people, Adolf.
You obviously have NO understanding what our Founding Fathers fought and died for. You should have moved to Saddam's Iraq while you still had a chance... when he invaded Iran and killed hundreds of thousands of Iranians, you would have been blissfully free of having to listen to any criticism of the war whatsover. Is that what you want for the US? I have good news for you: there are still a number of dictatorships left in the world, and I invite you to move to one immediately.
One more thing: what about the Republicans that gave Saddam money, computers, helicopters, nerve gas components, etc., in the 80's? Should they be punished as well? Or, in your dreamed-of fascist state, do those people get off scot-free, while the ordinary citizens who say things like "Maybe we should have left Iraq alone and gone after the people who actually attacked us" get "taken to a field and #$@$%." Nice.
Among other things, you obviously have failed to understand ANYTHING that Pink Floyd and Roger Waters are about.
Oh, BTW, you like Lep Zep, huh? Have you, by chance, bothered to listen to Robert Plant's latest SOLO ALBUM, by chance? "Freedom Fries"? Yer in for a real treat, chump, that's all I can say.
- quickpost - 09-13-2006 03:44 AM
- pakistanifloyd - 09-13-2006 04:03 AM
- FloydianLeaf - 09-13-2006 05:02 AM
scalzmoney Wrote:In my line of work you have to be a stickler for proper English."prerogative" is the proper spelling of the word you misspelled in your post before this one.
I was going to let it go without saying anything, as it is a very commonly misspelled word, but then I read the above and thought you may appreciate the correction as to not make the mistake again.
- pinkfloydfan1 - 09-13-2006 05:24 AM
scalzmoney Wrote:Listen Mabewa,i totally agree with u
Within Jumpy's post you may find truth, but I find it false. I'm not saying he can't say it if he wants to, I'm just saying he's wrong.
To say to an artist, 'hey buddy, I respect ya, but could you tone it down a little' is to silence their creative voice. That's wrong. And I'm not going to just say, 'good job, I agree with some of what you said'. I don't sit here and tell Toby Keith what to say at his shows so I'm not going to do it to Roger.
Suggesting that Roger feature images of Osama Bin Laden misses the point. He's not marching around appeasing our enemies. He knows what happened on 9/11. He lives in freakin' New York!
Isn't it worse to have a president who says 'vote for me or it will all happen again.'
Mabewa, do you really think the firemen who were poisoned at ground zero are all fans of Bush? What has been done for them? What about the Jersey Girls? Women who voted for Bush, and lost their husbands on 9/11. They had to lobby Congress to get the 9/11 Commission started. They are the families Jumpy is talking about. You lost a loved one. You don't have to kiss the president's ass forever. Do you have any opinion on the subsance of this topic or are you just going to keep telling me not to use bad words?
The fact is that Roger's been on tour for several months, doing the same show, so starting threads about it in September because suddenly you remembered 9/11 doesn't make you a genius in my book.
Jumpy also makes the fatal error of connecting 'the War' in Iraq with 9/11. Make no mistake, that's where we are doing the majority of our fighting. That's where almost as many soldiers have died as did on 9/11. What is right about that? What has it solved except to piss off the entire rest of the world at us.
Okay, so Jumpy may not be an idiot, but he's ignorant. Writing little 'open letters' that really ask for nothing, except for someone to explain to him what is really going on in this world.
Maybe Bin Laden should be shown with Bush on Roger's stage. Their families have been in business together for 30 years. Look it up.
Bush Sr. was with Osama's brother ON 9/11/01! Look it up.
Seriously, everybody. Get your facts straight, go read a book and then we'll debate Roger/Bush/9/11. Cheers!
- AlienAnthropologist - 09-13-2006 05:39 AM
Jumpy Wrote:Dear Roger,After having seen the 9/8/06 show in Massachusetts, I must say that I could not agree more with this open letter to Waters and it is exactly what I would like to say to the man.
I know that you are tech savvy, so on the off chance that you visit this site and read this message, I thought I'd write you here.
Roger, I've been a fan of your music for more than a quarter century. So believe me when I say I understand and appreciate your subject matter. I get it: War is bad.
Yet, I await the Pittsburgh stop on your current tour with mixed emotions, as I am disappointed by what I read in reviews of earlier shows on this tour. Frankly, I am angered as I think about your current show as it relates to this fifth anniversary of the 9/11 acts of war against the United States.
Please know that I am not a supporter of President Bush. In fact, I voted against him. Twice. I also believe that Bush has frequently been disingenuous when it comes to the "war on terror" -- specifically in regards to the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
At the same time, I believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was necessary and the right thing to do, given that the Taliban was giving safe haven to the plotters of the 9/11 attacks. So in short, I don't believe Bush is all bad; at times, he's had his priorities straight when crafting the difficult U.S. response to this unprecedented act of war.
I use the phrase "act of war" with a purpose, because of your mixed media messages and lyrics which suggest our President is a war criminal. If you are going to do that, why not use the opportunity to condemn those who started this war? Where are the images of Osama bin Laden? Where are the images of Mohammed Atta? Where are the images of the other pilots of those fateful 9/11 jetliners? Condemming Bush for his sometimes misguided response to acts of war is like condemming F.D.R. for Hiroshima, while giving Adolph Hitler a free pass.
You have written countless moving songs, or "stories," about your feelings related to growing up without your father who was lost in World War II. Then please, Roger, have some empathy to the motherless and fatherless victims of the 9/11 attacks. Have some feelings for the 7-year-old son of the firefighter who was crushed by tons of falling steel and concrete. Have some understanding for the 5-year-old daugher of the accountant who felt his "tears evaporate" as he literally melted from the heat of a missile launched by the cold heartless hands of Osama bin Laden. I fear that your current stance ignores many victims of this war -- those right here on U.S. soil.
Of course, as I said earlier, I'm only reacting to others' reviews of your shows, and I will wait to view it and make up my own mind. But if the reviews are accurate, I'm afraid I will be left with no other options than to give you a piece of my mind on Sept. 24. Regards,
A fan
Edited By AlienAnthropologist on 1158155572
- Skol - 09-13-2006 05:59 AM
QueenPinkWhoZep Wrote:I hope you never come to america.....and if you do, come pay me a visit, i have something for you....for you people who complain about the war in iraq, you should all be taken to a field and #$@$%Moron
- captain2man - 09-13-2006 09:02 AM
QueenPinkWhoZep Wrote:I hope you never come to america.....and if you do, come pay me a visit, i have something for you....for you people who complain about the war in iraq, you should all be taken to a field and #$@$%Let me direct you the Sean Hannity message boards:
http://www.hannity.com/
Clearly - you're someone who doesn't really care about the lyrical content of Floyd/Waters....that's fine.
But if you're any kind of fan at all - that Roger Waters or fans of Waters who take his lyrics over the years to heart would be anti-war is somehow surprising to you is, in fact, surprising to me! Have you not been paying attention?
Also interesting about your post is that you make a threat to someone - but - at the same time - make no effort whatsoever to support your position.
Of course - there is nothing sensical about your position - since you probably haven't really thought too much about it and are probably too busy putting bumper stickers on your car & shouting brilliant things like "These colors don't run!".
- QueenPinkWhoZep - 09-13-2006 07:50 PM
captain2man Wrote:I feel no need to support my backing of the war because no matter how clear of a point i make, I will be told that its crap and how it dosent matter, bush is bad blah blah blah....so thats why i dont feel a need to explain it.....i mean we have an absolute idiot on here who thinks 9/11 is an inside job....he needs to be flown into a building himself, alone.QueenPinkWhoZep Wrote:I hope you never come to america.....and if you do, come pay me a visit, i have something for you....for you people who complain about the war in iraq, you should all be taken to a field and #$@$%Let me direct you the Sean Hannity message boards:
http://www.hannity.com/
Clearly - you're someone who doesn't really care about the lyrical content of Floyd/Waters....that's fine.
But if you're any kind of fan at all - that Roger Waters or fans of Waters who take his lyrics over the years to heart would be anti-war is somehow surprising to you is, in fact, surprising to me! Have you not been paying attention?
Also interesting about your post is that you make a threat to someone - but - at the same time - make no effort whatsoever to support your position.
Of course - there is nothing sensical about your position - since you probably haven't really thought too much about it and are probably too busy putting bumper stickers on your car & shouting brilliant things like "These colors don't run!".
- pakistanifloyd - 09-14-2006 03:49 AM
QueenPinkWhoZep Wrote:I feel no need to support my backing of the war because no matter how clear of a point i make, I will be told that its crap and how it dosent matter, bush is bad blah blah blah....so thats why i dont feel a need to explain it.....i mean we have an absolute idiot on here who thinks 9/11 is an inside job....he needs to be flown into a building himself, alone.I didn't said its not Al-Qaeda, I said they were supported! Do you know who backed Taliban in cold war days knowing that it was an extremist group ?
Secondly I won't say a word to you, some already honoured you with good words! And if you said something else, I'll fly a plane and bang in your house, ha ha ha charade you are, just kidding! don't take it serious! I hope I'm not coming in your nightmares!
In the meantime you can watch this American documentry produced by an American x-army guy explaining 'the behind scenes' of 9/11, only for you:
http://video.google.co.uk/videopl....+change
(I believe some evidences here totally makes sense!)
- Grguitarfreek100 - 09-14-2006 11:47 AM
pakistanifloyd Wrote:Bush is not a war criminal, hes trying the best he can, hes only human. There is some political corruption, like the war on iraq wasnt completely justified. But he is no hitler, and you saying so, makes you a ******* idiot.Quote:I use the phrase "act of war" with a purpose, because of your mixed media messages and lyrics which suggest our President is a war criminal.
Yes President Bush is a war criminal just like Hitler was, just like Bin Laden!
We know people die in the middle east, we know of the horrible condition. One of the parts of the mission in there is to make it peaceful.
Trust me. all the americans here just want to stop the terrorism, get out of there and have the middle east have stable democratic governments.
the death toll in the middle east is way higher than that of america but for god sake we're trying to make it better.
and as for roger not mentioning osama but mentioning bush. He is speaking out for the little guy. Enough people have spoken for us. And not everyone there is bad, its about time someone spoke up.
- Grguitarfreek100 - 09-14-2006 11:50 AM
pakistanifloyd Wrote:and also, we know bush sr. backed al qaeda, but it was the best we could do. Stop the russians without going to war. Give the rebels weapon and train them. The stupid thing is that bush ticked them off by tangling in the gulf war.QueenPinkWhoZep Wrote:I feel no need to support my backing of the war because no matter how clear of a point i make, I will be told that its crap and how it dosent matter, bush is bad blah blah blah....so thats why i dont feel a need to explain it.....i mean we have an absolute idiot on here who thinks 9/11 is an inside job....he needs to be flown into a building himself, alone.I didn't said its not Al-Qaeda, I said they were supported! Do you know who backed Taliban in cold war days knowing that it was an extremist group ?
Secondly I won't say a word to you, some already honoured you with good words! And if you said something else, I'll fly a plane and bang in your house, ha ha ha charade you are, just kidding! don't take it serious! I hope I'm not coming in your nightmares!
In the meantime you can watch this American documentry produced by an American x-army guy explaining 'the behind scenes' of 9/11, only for you:
http://video.google.co.uk/videopl....+change
(I believe some evidences here totally makes sense!)
Its not evil that bush sr. backed them back then.
once again, your opinion is biased and you are an idiot.
i try to view from both sides. the question is could you do any better? could you? can you change the world? make it a better place. Hes not a superhero, hes just like you and me, with more responsibility. hes done some stupid stuff. and i dont completely back him.
I believe in freedom of speech and opinion but when you say bush can be compared to hitler i am extremely offended.
Edited By Grguitarfreek100 on 1158263844
- Jumpy - 09-14-2006 12:01 PM
Grguitarfreek100 Wrote:I believe in freedom of speech and opinion but when you say bush can be compared to hitler i am extremely offended.Don't be offended. Pakistanifloyd is a dunderhead and a troll.
I thought he had stopped trolling this board last summer, but unfortunately not.
- Grguitarfreek100 - 09-14-2006 03:57 PM
true. :unclesam: :unclesam:
- mabewa - 09-14-2006 05:30 PM
Quote:.....i mean we have an absolute idiot on here who thinks 9/11 is an inside job....he needs to be flown into a building himself, alone.
LOL!
I mean, OK, for the record, I think that Pakistanifloyd is dead wrong here. Bush is guilty of gross negligence, not of any kind of collaboration with Al Qaeda.
But, that's besides the point: you're the person who wrote above that "for you people who complain about the war in iraq, you should all be taken to a field and #$@$%."
Seeing that something like 60% of the American public currently opposes the Iraq war, it seems like you are advocating doing something nasty to an enormous number of people. The population of the US is about 300,000,000 people, so you're talking about talking 180,000,000 million people out to a field, it seems. You're going to need a mighty big field, for one thing--after all, you are advocating killing (or raping? torturing?) 60,000 times more Americans than died on 9/11. Bin Laden would be very proud of you.
You're quite possibly the biggest troll and nutjob I've ever met on the Internet, and that's saying a lot.
Edited By mabewa on 1158284017
- pakistanifloyd - 09-15-2006 04:54 AM
To Grguitarfreak:
So what is exactly a war criminal? review it, war criminal is an offender who violates international law during times of war, who offences against humanity, who mistreats prisoners of war, so your dear Bush is more than a human, he's a war criminal and references are War on Iraq and Abu Ghuraib Jail and Guantanamo Bay. So it simply makes you an idiot, Bush freak!
To Jumpy:
Well, we all know who you are, you're another brick in the wall, just another Bush freak! I've been posting here for a long time, this is the first time i'm into a politcal debate, understood! I guess you got problems with my ID! I haven't been behaving like you! Btw go back to school and learn to behave and respect!
Actually, I do expect abnormal behaviour from all Bush freaks!
Hey You White House
Ha Ha Charade you Are
- Sydney - 09-15-2006 05:26 AM
This isn't even about Roger anymore. It has turned into an argument over Bush and his policies. The way I look at it religion and political beliefs have a lot in common. You see, no one knows the best political system-everyone thinks they do, but really it is a belief. You belief in a conservative system or you believe in a socialist system, etc. But nonetheless you believe, which is different than knowing. Now in religion you believe is a certain God (or lack of), but you don't know if in the end your beliefs are correct or not. Now everyone I know believes in religious freedom, and right to hold beliefs even if it isn't the majorities belief. You can worship as you choose (so long as it doesn't infringe upon another's right).
Now could someone explain to me why you can't have certain beliefs when it comes to politics? Can someone explain why one can not believe in a certain type of government, but they can choose whatever God they wish? Could someone please explain why people are ridiculed and insulted over beliefs? The best debates are those based on facts-well guess what? There are few facts when it comes to political ideology!
Stop insulting one another by calling people idiots, Bush Freaks, terrorists amoung the other rude names. I would call it childish, but then I know my younger siblings would never act like this. This is just horrible the way people are being treated and responded to. There many things said that I do not agree with on this board but I will not resort to degrading someone. Furthermore I have seen some the most gross generalizations and suggestions on this topic, from both sides, and it sickens me to think that people are prejudice on this board.
I hope that this will be dropped, and that, as I said in the other topic, we can go back to discussions on music and lyrics-NOT Bush.
- Jumpy - 09-15-2006 06:01 AM
pakistanifloyd Wrote:To Jumpy:I've said at least two times, but for the slow, dimwitted, and terrorists on the board, I voted for Bush's opponents twice.
Well, we all know who you are, you're another brick in the wall, just another Bush freak! I've been posting here for a long time, this is the first time i'm into a politcal debate, understood! I guess you got problems with my ID! I haven't been behaving like you! Btw go back to school and learn to behave and respect!
While I've long grasped the lack of depth to your intellect, Pakistanifloyd, thanks for revealing it to everyone else. And please tell us more about how Bush = Hitler.
And for anyone who wants to know what Pakistanitroll REALLY thinks about Roger, do a search on his posts starting from old to new. You'll find stuff almost as interesting as Bush = Hitler.
- Pinks Pig - 09-15-2006 10:55 AM
Sydney Wrote:This isn't even about Roger anymore. It has turned into an argument over Bush and his policies. The way I look at it religion and political beliefs have a lot in common. You see, no one knows the best political system-everyone thinks they do, but really it is a belief. You belief in a conservative system or you believe in a socialist system, etc. But nonetheless you believe, which is different than knowing. Now in religion you believe is a certain God (or lack of), but you don't know if in the end your beliefs are correct or not. Now everyone I know believes in religious freedom, and right to hold beliefs even if it isn't the majorities belief. You can worship as you choose (so long as it doesn't infringe upon another's right).Good post,but they are many people out there including myself and Roger that don't like the lies that come out of the whitehouse.pakistanifloyd is just saying the same things Roger is saying but in another way.Why does Roger believe that Bush should be impeached ?
Now could someone explain to me why you can't have certain beliefs when it comes to politics? Can someone explain why one can not believe in a certain type of government, but they can choose whatever God they wish? Could someone please explain why people are ridiculed and insulted over beliefs? The best debates are those based on facts-well guess what? There are few facts when it comes to political ideology!
Stop insulting one another by calling people idiots, Bush Freaks, terrorists amoung the other rude names. I would call it childish, but then I know my younger siblings would never act like this. This is just horrible the way people are being treated and responded to. There many things said that I do not agree with on this board but I will not resort to degrading someone. Furthermore I have seen some the most gross generalizations and suggestions on this topic, from both sides, and it sickens me to think that people are prejudice on this board.
I hope that this will be dropped, and that, as I said in the other topic, we can go back to discussions on music and lyrics-NOT Bush.
Bush has been lieing from day one about this war that's why.
It's a known fact.I will show you the facts if you want.
Yes your right this is going beyond Roger talk and turning into politicts,but Roger shares the same view as me and pakistanifloyd.
Edited By Pinks Pig on 1158346609
- Sydney - 09-15-2006 10:59 AM
Pinks Pig Wrote:I don't really care what you believe or Pakistanifloyd believe or Jumpy or anyone else. You see it is none of my buisness. I never said anything about disagreeing with. I just think horrible how people are responding to eachother, especially on a matter which is based on beliefs. That's my post was about. I didn't call anyone out for their beliefs. You assume a lot about me, and you know what they say about some one who assumes. You shouldn't be so quick to judge, it seems to put you in line with your enemy.Sydney Wrote:This isn't even about Roger anymore. It has turned into an argument over Bush and his policies. The way I look at it religion and political beliefs have a lot in common. You see, no one knows the best political system-everyone thinks they do, but really it is a belief. You belief in a conservative system or you believe in a socialist system, etc. But nonetheless you believe, which is different than knowing. Now in religion you believe is a certain God (or lack of), but you don't know if in the end your beliefs are correct or not. Now everyone I know believes in religious freedom, and right to hold beliefs even if it isn't the majorities belief. You can worship as you choose (so long as it doesn't infringe upon another's right).Good post,but they are many people out there including myself and Roger that don't like the lies that come out of the whitehouse.pakistanifloyd is just saying the same things Roger is saying but in another way.Why does Roger believe that Bush should be impeached ?Bush has been lieing from day one about this war that why.
Now could someone explain to me why you can't have certain beliefs when it comes to politics? Can someone explain why one can not believe in a certain type of government, but they can choose whatever God they wish? Could someone please explain why people are ridiculed and insulted over beliefs? The best debates are those based on facts-well guess what? There are few facts when it comes to political ideology!
Stop insulting one another by calling people idiots, Bush Freaks, terrorists amoung the other rude names. I would call it childish, but then I know my younger siblings would never act like this. This is just horrible the way people are being treated and responded to. There many things said that I do not agree with on this board but I will not resort to degrading someone. Furthermore I have seen some the most gross generalizations and suggestions on this topic, from both sides, and it sickens me to think that people are prejudice on this board.
I hope that this will be dropped, and that, as I said in the other topic, we can go back to discussions on music and lyrics-NOT Bush.
It's a known fact.I will show you the facts if you want.
Yes your right this is going beyond Roger talk and turning into politicts,but Roger shares the same view as me and pakistanifloyd.
Edited By Sydney on 1158346798
- Jumpy - 09-15-2006 11:00 AM
I think if we were all sitting around having a few beers or cups of coffees, this would be more of a discussion than an argument. With the exception of Pakistanifloyd, who shouldn't be allowed in the restaurant! :laugh:
But I don't know Sydney. No matter what you think about it, when Roger tours with visuals that say "Impeach the President," you're going to have this kind of debate. There's no escaping it.
He's being much more inflammatory than Natalie Maines from the Dixie Chicks, and look what happened to her.
- Sydney - 09-15-2006 11:06 AM
Jumpy Wrote:I think if we were all sitting around having a few beers or cups of coffees, this would be more of a discussion than an argument. With the exception of Pakistanifloyd, who shouldn't be allowed in the restaurant! :laugh:You're right. There is going to be discussion, and that's fine. Discussion is what makes the world go round. But it should be respectful discussion. And it should remain to the topic at hand rather than some of the ridiculness that has been brought up. I just hate the judgment going on here. Like I said before, politics and religion have a lot in common. One should not be insulted for their religious beliefs and that also applies to their political beliefs.
But I don't know Sydney. No matter what you think about it, when Roger tours with visuals that say "Impeach the President," you're going to have this kind of debate. There's no escaping it.
He's being much more inflammatory than Natalie Maines from the Dixie Chicks, and look what happened to her.
Coffee does sound nice though Jumpy. You can buy a round for us all. :;):
- Pinks Pig - 09-15-2006 11:07 AM
Sydney Wrote:Yes when people assume they make an ass out of themselves :DPinks Pig Wrote:I don't really care what you believe or Pakistanifloyd believe or Jumpy or anyone else. You see it is none of my buisness. I never said anything about disagreeing with. I just think horrible how people are responding to eachother, especially on a matter which is based on beliefs. That's my post was about. I didn't call anyone out for their beliefs. You assume a lot about me, and you know what they say about some one who assumes. You shouldn't be so quick to judge, it seems to put you in line with your enemy.Sydney Wrote:This isn't even about Roger anymore. It has turned into an argument over Bush and his policies. The way I look at it religion and political beliefs have a lot in common. You see, no one knows the best political system-everyone thinks they do, but really it is a belief. You belief in a conservative system or you believe in a socialist system, etc. But nonetheless you believe, which is different than knowing. Now in religion you believe is a certain God (or lack of), but you don't know if in the end your beliefs are correct or not. Now everyone I know believes in religious freedom, and right to hold beliefs even if it isn't the majorities belief. You can worship as you choose (so long as it doesn't infringe upon another's right).Good post,but they are many people out there including myself and Roger that don't like the lies that come out of the whitehouse.pakistanifloyd is just saying the same things Roger is saying but in another way.Why does Roger believe that Bush should be impeached ?Bush has been lieing from day one about this war that why.
Now could someone explain to me why you can't have certain beliefs when it comes to politics? Can someone explain why one can not believe in a certain type of government, but they can choose whatever God they wish? Could someone please explain why people are ridiculed and insulted over beliefs? The best debates are those based on facts-well guess what? There are few facts when it comes to political ideology!
Stop insulting one another by calling people idiots, Bush Freaks, terrorists amoung the other rude names. I would call it childish, but then I know my younger siblings would never act like this. This is just horrible the way people are being treated and responded to. There many things said that I do not agree with on this board but I will not resort to degrading someone. Furthermore I have seen some the most gross generalizations and suggestions on this topic, from both sides, and it sickens me to think that people are prejudice on this board.
I hope that this will be dropped, and that, as I said in the other topic, we can go back to discussions on music and lyrics-NOT Bush.
It's a known fact.I will show you the facts if you want.
Yes your right this is going beyond Roger talk and turning into politicts,but Roger shares the same view as me and pakistanifloyd.
You don't care what i or pakistanifloyd or jumpy believe but i think you do care what Roger's got to say otherwise you wont be in this thread.For sure calling people names is stupid and should be left in the school ground we are all Floyd fans here at the end of the day,like Jumpy said some of us are having beers and coffee and drink does go to ones head.
- pakistanifloyd - 09-16-2006 02:55 AM
Pinks Pig Wrote:Good post,but they are many people out there including myself and Roger that don't like the lies that come out of the whitehouse.pakistanifloyd is just saying the same things Roger is saying but in another way.Why does Roger believe that Bush should be impeached ?Right, Pinks Pig! you know the worst thing here is people insult you on your views.
Bush has been lieing from day one about this war that's why.
It's a known fact.I will show you the facts if you want.
Yes your right this is going beyond Roger talk and turning into politicts,but Roger shares the same view as me and pakistanifloyd.
And as Jumpy won't like me in a resturant, I'll stick in this forum.
Long Live Floyd!
- Jumpy - 09-16-2006 08:26 AM
pakistanifloyd Wrote:And as Jumpy won't like me in a resturant, I'll stick in this forum.I'll buy you a cup of coffee as long as the others tactfully sit between us.
- spacement - 09-16-2006 10:14 PM
Music is not just a form of entertianment. Music is an art form. As well as a form of entertainment, it is also a form of expression. Like movies and books, music covers many topics and feelings. And like movies and books, there are many different catagories of music. Not all catagories we agree with or even like. Each song is written by a different writer and many times those writers use songs to express their feelings, wether it be about love, life or politics. That is the writer's right and if you don't agree with them then don't read their books, see their movies, play their CDs or go to their concerts.
I know many people go to concerts to escape having to think about the headlines in the news, reality, etc. But sorry buying that concert ticket doesn't give you the right to be able to go to a show and have it be free of political views. Do some research before you buy that ticket to make sure the artist (not entertainer but artist) is going to provide you with the experience you are hoping for. I went on a cruise in June, I didn't bother going to see the movie Posiden before I left for the cruise. Just like if I was trying to get my mind off of 9-11, I wouldn't go see the movie Flight 93.
So why after 30+ years of Roger having very strong and outspoken political views expressed through HIS music are people going to his concerts and bitching about the fact that his show has some strong poilitcal overtones? No sh-t, really?!?!? I thought "Us & Them", "Sheep", "Southampton Dock", etc. were all about drinking beer on the weekends and screwing my old lady. ROGER's version of Pink Floyd is very political and if after all this time you are just now getting it, then you haven't been paying attention. It's a bit like going to a gay bar and getting upset that guys are groping and kissing each other.
Sure let's all go see Roger perform Dark Side of the Moon! Let's have some beers, smoke some joints and forget about reality for the night. Wait a minute you mean to tell me that the whole theme of the album deals with Life and the reality of Life? That's not why I came here, me and the old lady dropped the kids off for the night and are looking to not have to think and be mindlessly entertained for the evening. Opps sorry, you bought a ticket for the wrong concert, maybe Justin Timberlake will be in town next week.
Check out Brain Damage on the newly released Pulse DVD. Oh my goodness, there's images of daddy Bush and Clinton being shown the same time they are mentioning lunatics. I want my money back. You don't buy a porno mag to read as a bedtime story to your kids at night. You don't put on a chick flick when the wife is out of town and all the guys are over to drink some beers. And you don't go to a Roger Water's concert if you are looking to escape from politics. Roger didn't just recently jump on the bash Bush bandwagon. His father was killed in war and he has expressed his dislike of world leader's and war for many years now.
Just because music is a form of entertainment it shouldn't have to be free of the artist's views or expressions of their beliefs. Afterall music is an art form and meant to express many different feeling or emotions. You have a choice when you buy that concert ticket. And just like buying a book or renting a movie find out first if this is really the kind of subject matter you want to watch. Wake up and pay some attention to the world around you.
- mabewa - 09-17-2006 03:52 AM
Quote:It's a bit like going to a gay bar and getting upset that guys are groping and kissing each other.
LOL! Thanks for a good laugh, and a point well-made.
- Grguitarfreek100 - 09-17-2006 12:13 PM
pakistanifloyd Wrote:Actually, I do expect abnormal behaviour from all Bush freaks!Its not talking about the white house there. Its talking about Mary Whitehouse you idiot, and im not a bushfreak, i dont even like bush, but hes not a war criminal. And even if you consider him one, he cannot be compared to what hitler has done.
Hey You White House
Ha Ha Charade you Are
- pakistanifloyd - 09-17-2006 02:52 PM
Grguitarfreek100 Wrote:Its not talking about the white house there. Its talking about Mary Whitehouse you idiot, and im not a bushfreak, i dont even like bush, but hes not a war criminal. And even if you consider him one, he cannot be compared to what hitler has done.The time is gone the song is over,
Thought I'd something more to say
You're late man, things have calmed down here! anyways
you've misunderstood me again, I was quoting those lines in my reference to the White House Washington! Just like newspapers quotes in context to thier news.
Secondly, Hitler was a massive, huge war criminal while Bush is a small one! You know the tiny one... who likes tale of 'Pet Goat'! Isn't that cute!
Anyways, PEACE!
- Philintheflesh - 09-17-2006 03:45 PM
I`ve not been around for a week or so, and seemed to have missed some engaging (if heated) discussion.
Forgive me if I`ve "skim-read" a lot of people`s posts, but I`ve tried to take in a lot in a short time-period.
mabewa Wrote:As an American who was living abroad when 9/11 happen, I know that the victims of 9/11 were extensively mourned worldwide.Yes, mabewa, they were extensively mourned. In fact the out-pouring of sympathy toward America at that time, was unprecedented. A brilliant spring-board, one would think, from which to tackle the "war on terror" the right way.
In response to Jumpy, I don`t think it`s lack of thought for the victims of 9/11 that shows itself in Roger Waters` songs....conversely, I would argue, that he is highlighting a certain betrayal of them. I`m sure Waters would argue that the way the Bush administration has managed, inexplicably, to piss away a lot of that goodwill over the last 5 years, is one of the great disservices to their memory.
Here`s a quote from rolanddoe on the 9/11 thread which I think rings true:-
Quote:I think it's sad that the legacy of that day has become the Bush administration's personal agendas and the attendant lies about WMDs and Bin Laden's links to Saddam Hussein. We're now set back to the Vietnam era and making the world safe for democracy.
The WTC victims deserved better than to be victimized again for that purpose.
Whatever your political view-point, we should cherish that freedom of speech allows anyone to get up on a stage and say what they think....it also allows an audience to express their own feelings by booing or cheering as they see fit.
- Sydney - 09-17-2006 05:03 PM
Philintheflesh Wrote:In response to Jumpy, I don`t think it`s lack of thought for the victims of 9/11 that shows itself in Roger Waters` songs....conversely, I would argue, that he is highlighting a certain betrayal of them.It should be recalled that it was the betrayal of WWII casualties that caused the anger heard in The Final Cut. Interesting take Phil, thank you.
- Jumpy - 09-17-2006 06:33 PM
Grguitarfreek100 Wrote:Wow... that's perfect. He didn't even know the difference between Mary Whitehouse and the White House, thereby totally misquoting Roger and not even understanding the lyrics well enough to hold his own in this argument. Yet, he has the nerve to insinuate that we don't get the lyrics.pakistanifloyd Wrote:Actually, I do expect abnormal behaviour from all Bush freaks!Its not talking about the white house there. Its talking about Mary Whitehouse you idiot, and im not a bushfreak, i dont even like bush, but hes not a war criminal. And even if you consider him one, he cannot be compared to what hitler has done.
Hey You White House
Ha Ha Charade you Are
The prosecution rests.
- mabewa - 09-17-2006 07:07 PM
I don't follow you guys. How does quoting "Hey hey whitehouse, ha ha charade you are" equal mistaking Whitehouse with White House"?
Pakistanifloyd and Jumpy, you don't have to be totally dismissive of each other. You're obviously both misreading what the other is saying.
- proudamerican - 09-17-2006 08:30 PM
With Roger and his political antics on tour it once again shows how hollyweird actors and the loony musicians seem to think the people really give a rats ass about their opinion.
It is unfortunate they just don't get. We are fortunate there still are a few countries in the world willing to uproot evil doers. Thank god we have an administration who is on the offensive and not sitting on their hands waiting for these islamo-facists to strike again.
What a great group of folks who behead innocent people.For any nutjobs who try to say bush is a war criminal or like hitler, you are truly a sick person.
Its unfortunate the middle east countries don't join the 21st century instead of continuing to live in the 12th...but i guess its easier to destroy than create....voting democrate will destroy the U.S..gee why does all our enemies hate Bush??...cause they would love a weak U.S.....SORRY ROGER , we ain't buying your propoganda from you and your druggie fans. :unclesam:
- HowLeTT - 09-17-2006 10:47 PM
Blatant stereotyping and poor grammar/spelling go a long way toward making your opinion seem completely irrelevant.
The reason Roger can express his views like this is because... well, he can! He's in the public eye, whereas you and I are restrained to posting on internet messageboards that discuss his ability to communicate ideas and heart-felt beliefs to a mass audience. Jealous? Me too.
- Skol - 09-18-2006 12:49 AM
proudamerican Wrote:With Roger and his political antics on tour it once again shows how hollyweird actors and the loony musicians seem to think the people really give a rats ass about their opinion.Wow, you're so close to racism it's untrue.
It is unfortunate they just don't get. We are fortunate there still are a few countries in the world willing to uproot evil doers. Thank god we have an administration who is on the offensive and not sitting on their hands waiting for these islamo-facists to strike again.
What a great group of folks who behead innocent people.For any nutjobs who try to say bush is a war criminal or like hitler, you are truly a sick person.
Its unfortunate the middle east countries don't join the 21st century instead of continuing to live in the 12th...but i guess its easier to destroy than create....voting democrate will destroy the U.S..gee why does all our enemies hate Bush??...cause they would love a weak U.S.....SORRY ROGER , we ain't buying your propoganda from you and your druggie fans. :unclesam:
- scalzmoney - 09-18-2006 01:49 AM
I am proud that one of my favorite artists of all time, Roger, has the strength and courage to challenge his audience like this.
Here on this board we are seeing what is playing out around the world.
A vocal minority is claiming to be 'right' or 'correct' when claiming that Roger has somehow spat on the graves of 9/11 victims or kicked sand in the faces of American troops when criticizing President Bush during his concert. Just writing that makes it seem so silly. Roger is not testifying at the U.N. or in front of Congress. He's playing shows.
Anyhoo, this is the minority view not only around the world, but here in America, too. Which doesn't mean it shouldn't be heard, but those of us in opposition to war in general and this war in particular can gain some strength in knowing that friends around the world understand what we are going through here in the states.
For those who continue to bash Roger there obviously cannot be any satisfactory ending to this. He won't change his show or his political views. He won't inject 9/11 imagery into his presentation. You can't be satisfied so you'll just continue to moan about it.
As stated above, it is George Bush who dispariages the memory of the victims of tragedy each time he invokes 9/11 to justify torture and war. He is leaving a big mess for all of us who have to exist in this world long after he's retired to his home state of Connecticut. Or his adopted home state of Maine. Or his other adopted state, Texas. He's slippery, that Bush.
- welcome_to_the_dark_side - 09-18-2006 10:20 AM
scalzmoney Wrote:I am proud that one of my favorite artists of all time, Roger, has the strength and courage to challenge his audience like this.Totally agree with you scalzmoney. I am proud of Roger too. This man rocks
Here on this board we are seeing what is playing out around the world.
A vocal minority is claiming to be 'right' or 'correct' when claiming that Roger has somehow spat on the graves of 9/11 victims or kicked sand in the faces of American troops when criticizing President Bush during his concert. Just writing that makes it seem so silly. Roger is not testifying at the U.N. or in front of Congress. He's playing shows.
Anyhoo, this is the minority view not only around the world, but here in America, too. Which doesn't mean it shouldn't be heard, but those of us in opposition to war in general and this war in particular can gain some strength in knowing that friends around the world understand what we are going through here in the states.
For those who continue to bash Roger there obviously cannot be any satisfactory ending to this. He won't change his show or his political views. He won't inject 9/11 imagery into his presentation. You can't be satisfied so you'll just continue to moan about it.
As stated above, it is George Bush who dispariages the memory of the victims of tragedy each time he invokes 9/11 to justify torture and war. He is leaving a big mess for all of us who have to exist in this world long after he's retired to his home state of Connecticut. Or his adopted home state of Maine. Or his other adopted state, Texas. He's slippery, that Bush.
- proudamerican - 09-18-2006 04:32 PM
you may try to use the racism card with me all you want, its unfortunate that you are to blinfd to see the truth before it kills you. When is Roger going to go have a concert for the muslim faithful who are calling for the popes death???.
A wonderful group they are, they are coming to slit your throat but hey, thats ok....wake-up...roger has you in a trance.
- AndersonCouncill - 09-18-2006 04:37 PM
proudamerican Wrote:you may try to use the racism card with me all you want, its unfortunate that you are to blinfd to see the truth before it kills you. When is Roger going to go have a concert for the muslim faithful who are calling for the popes death???.Are you having fun trolling, Mr?
A wonderful group they are, they are coming to slit your throat but hey, thats ok....wake-up...roger has you in a trance.
Oh, and a lot of people don't exactly like the Pope. I really don't. At all. Should he die? Probably not. Is he a good person? Well, probably not. At least not the current pope.
And don't talk to ME about being in a trance. My father served in the war because he was convinced it would help his life and his country. You know what happened? He came back to a ****** job and a ****** life and he's still convinced the US government are his buddies. You don't think Bush has YOU in a trance with all this fear of terrorism? It's awfully similiar to Cowboy Ronnie scaring everyone during the 80s so that their pockets would go straight up to him.
You like your guns, dontchya? Come on, Pilgrim. Draw. Let's see you go, John Wayne. Maybe if you make the shot it'll helpt you to compensate.
Edited By AndersonCouncill on 1158626460
- welcome_to_the_dark_side - 09-18-2006 05:34 PM
proudamerican Wrote:you may try to use the racism card with me all you want, its unfortunate that you are to blinfd to see the truth before it kills you. When is Roger going to go have a concert for the muslim faithful who are calling for the popes death???."They can polish their medals and sharpen their smiles, and amuse themselves playing games for a while, boom boom bang bang lie down you're dead" RW
A wonderful group they are, they are coming to slit your throat but hey, thats ok....wake-up...roger has you in a trance.
YOU ARE too blind to see the truth.
Haven't you noticed they lied to us for the iraqy thread? and sent soldiers to be killed just to protect their business? Still believe them? Are you ready to go to bagdad and win a medal? Good boy, and "Sheep" was writen for you.
Hey, you don't have to be a proud american, just be an american who respect the others and you'll be ok.
- proudamerican - 09-18-2006 05:42 PM
fools you are...keep living in your fog.
- AndersonCouncill - 09-18-2006 05:53 PM
proudamerican Wrote:fools you are...keep living in your fog.You made no point. How are "we" fools? We're making real points. You are not.
- welcome_to_the_dark_side - 09-18-2006 06:03 PM
proudamerican Wrote:fools you are...keep living in your fog.You're right i am a fool, but i am not a sheep!
:laugh:
- AndersonCouncill - 09-18-2006 06:08 PM
welcome_to_the_dark_side Wrote:Fearlessly the idiot faced the crowd.proudamerican Wrote:fools you are...keep living in your fog.You're right i am a fool, but i am not a sheep!
:laugh:
- AndersonCouncill - 09-18-2006 06:11 PM
proudamerican Wrote:With Roger and his political antics on tour it once again shows how hollyweird actors and the loony musicians seem to think the people really give a rats ass about their opinion.Just so I don't wonder... You're last name isn't Bahr, is it?
It is unfortunate they just don't get. We are fortunate there still are a few countries in the world willing to uproot evil doers. Thank god we have an administration who is on the offensive and not sitting on their hands waiting for these islamo-facists to strike again.
What a great group of folks who behead innocent people.For any nutjobs who try to say bush is a war criminal or like hitler, you are truly a sick person.
Its unfortunate the middle east countries don't join the 21st century instead of continuing to live in the 12th...but i guess its easier to destroy than create....voting democrate will destroy the U.S..gee why does all our enemies hate Bush??...cause they would love a weak U.S.....SORRY ROGER , we ain't buying your propoganda from you and your druggie fans. :unclesam:
- mabewa - 09-18-2006 08:18 PM
Quote:you may try to use the racism card with me all you want, its unfortunate that you are to blinfd to see the truth before it kills you. When is Roger going to go have a concert for the muslim faithful who are calling for the popes death???.
A wonderful group they are, they are coming to slit your throat but hey, thats ok....wake-up...roger has you in a trance.
Yep. All Muslims are EXACTLY the same--they are all one big unified group, and they are hiding under yr bed, waiting to slit your throat. All one billion-plus Muslims are unified in wanting to kill me, you, your granny and your pet dog and even your goldfish. If we don't wage war on all of them, they will take away our freedom! They hate us for our freedom! In fact, they are so dangerous that WE have to take away our OWN freedom in order to be stronger than them (and, I guess, to make them hate us a little less).
Please get a brain. I'm not fond of extreme Islam at all (I'm not fond of any extreme form of any religion), but history shows clearly that when you paint millions of people with the same brush, you severely limit your own understanding, and as such, put yourself in greater danger. I've been to several Muslim countries, and met very large numbers of moderate Muslims who were very frustrated dealing with extremists in their own societies and who had a positive view of the West for its openness. You don't help your cause at all by completely marginalizing the hundreds of millions of Muslims who don't fit into your boneheaded stereotypes.
Also, whatever happened to "know thine enemy," anyway? Lumping, for example, Shi'ite extremists and Sunni extremists into the same group, as Bush is doing, is breathtakingly ignorant. I mean, they've only been fighting each other for 1300 years... even if you think that Islam is just pure evil, do you really want to unite its two main factions? People like you are just playing into Bin Laden's hands.
It's even more boneheaded, by the way, to invade secular countries like Iraq and risk turning them into theocracies. I'm not really sure how you are "fighting Islam" by creating another Islamic state. Shockingly, Bush didn't even know that Iraq was divided into 3 separate polities (Shi'ite, Sunni and Kurd) until several weeks before the invasion, which tells you a lot about why the whole thing has turned out so badly. Ignorance is dangerous, knowledge is power, and we have possibly the most ignorant president we've ever had.
But, it doesn't matter, does it? You boneheads would support Bush no matter WHAT he did. I have a feeling that George Bush could convert to Islam himself, and his more boneheaded followers would find some way as explaining it as part of the fight against "Islamofascism." That's how brainwashed you all are.
Edited By mabewa on 1158639700
- proudamerican - 09-18-2006 09:09 PM
fighting for 13oo years...now that is a great religion...oh...have they killed the pope yet?
- HowLeTT - 09-18-2006 09:58 PM
have you ever heard of the crusades?
I also wasnt aware that there were 1300 year old muslims.
- pointmeatthesky - 09-18-2006 10:02 PM
proudamerican Wrote:Since I can't debate, I'll call them fools and escape into the night!Yep.
- RogerWaterz - 09-18-2006 10:45 PM
- proudamerican - 09-18-2006 10:58 PM
- RogerWaterz - 09-18-2006 11:21 PM
Oh so Im on crack because i express my opinion for the first time in a poem. Im really sure im the only one on this board with these ideas. Considering thats my first poem i ever wrote, i think its ok. If you have one to i would love to hear it.
- mabewa - 09-19-2006 06:57 AM
Quote:Thats a poem???..LOL....never read such rubbish...time to put down the crackpipe before you are to the point of no return..
Dude, you're one to talk.
Judging from the few posts you've made here, you have serious trouble making it through a single sentence without making spelling or grammar errors. There are people here from non-English speaking countries who can write way better than you can.
- Gretsch - 09-19-2006 07:39 AM
I'm still not wearing any pants.
- proudamerican - 09-19-2006 08:41 AM
mabewa Wrote:dude...wheres your car??...the poem sucked and you know it.Quote:Thats a poem???..LOL....never read such rubbish...time to put down the crackpipe before you are to the point of no return..
Dude, you're one to talk.
Judging from the few posts you've made here, you have serious trouble making it through a single sentence without making spelling or grammar errors. There are people here from non-English speaking countries who can write way better than you can.
- welcome_to_the_dark_side - 09-19-2006 09:17 AM
proudamerican Wrote:Hey,mabewa Wrote:dude...wheres your car??...the poem sucked and you know it.Quote:Thats a poem???..LOL....never read such rubbish...time to put down the crackpipe before you are to the point of no return..
Dude, you're one to talk.
Judging from the few posts you've made here, you have serious trouble making it through a single sentence without making spelling or grammar errors. There are people here from non-English speaking countries who can write way better than you can.
Every sentence you write has no sense as you are not able to THINK. You should call yourself proudsheep.
:laugh:
- Philintheflesh - 09-19-2006 09:30 AM
proudamerican Wrote:they are coming to slit your throat but hey, thats ok....wake-up...roger has you in a trance.That`s rich.
I suggest you wrap yourself up in a nice warm flag...and go back to sleep.
- Jumpy - 09-19-2006 09:46 AM
"There were Arabs with knives at the foot of the bed... right at the foot of the bed!" -- Pros & Cons
Edited By Jumpy on 1158688138
- HowLeTT - 09-19-2006 10:11 AM
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin. A founding m'fing father.
- Grguitarfreek100 - 09-19-2006 11:11 AM
how can people be so ignorant as to include race or religion in this. The terrorists were islamic mostly, but they are fanatics, and there are fanatics in every race. Hitler was christian and tried to kill the jews. Everyone is equal and has the right to state their opinion without getting totally demolished. The muslims are misunderstood, we need to reach out with nothing hidden.
As the great Albert Einstien once said, " Peace cannot be kept by force, but only achieved by understanding."
to pakistanifloyd and others sharing his opinon.
im sorry i called you an idiot pakistanifloyd.
although we have different opinions about bush, we both strive for the same goal, and calling names wont make it better.
- QueenPinkWhoZep - 09-19-2006 11:51 AM
pakistanifloyd is an idiot, he is a moron, and anything else. He is a coward....he needs to be rid of....he actually thinks bush is a war criminal, he is as much as a moron as any other liberal.
the idiot who wrote the peom should also be done with. I'm tired of all the anti USA and anti Bush. War has to happen to acheive peace and demorcracy. I dont care if people in the middle east die for this to happen. In the long run it will save more lives with a stable government.
WAR HAS TO HAPPEN. Its sad but true, and when war happens, people die, as sad as it is. War is necessary at times.
I dont care if Bush lied or had an agenda before 9/11 about Iraq. Sadamm had to be taken out. Did people forget that innocent people were dying in iraq? I guess its ok for them to die to a dictator......
i am tired of the all the conspiracy therorists who say 9/11 was an inside job.....complete and utter morons who need something to hang their liberal hat on....you make me sick....
anyways, all the anti bush people and anti war people go blow yourself up....
- welcome_to_the_dark_side - 09-19-2006 12:22 PM
QueenPinkWhoZep Wrote:pakistanifloyd is an idiot, he is a moron, and anything else. He is a coward....he needs to be rid of....he actually thinks bush is a war criminal, he is as much as a moron as any other liberal.LOL
the idiot who wrote the peom should also be done with. I'm tired of all the anti USA and anti Bush. War has to happen to acheive peace and demorcracy. I dont care if people in the middle east die for this to happen. In the long run it will save more lives with a stable government.
WAR HAS TO HAPPEN. Its sad but true, and when war happens, people die, as sad as it is. War is necessary at times.
I dont care if Bush lied or had an agenda before 9/11 about Iraq. Sadamm had to be taken out. Did people forget that innocent people were dying in iraq? I guess its ok for them to die to a dictator......
i am tired of the all the conspiracy therorists who say 9/11 was an inside job.....complete and utter morons who need something to hang their liberal hat on....you make me sick....
anyways, all the anti bush people and anti war people go blow yourself up....
Did you know that morons are those who says the others are morons?
:upside:
- pointmeatthesky - 09-19-2006 01:25 PM
This thread makes me laugh.
- Sydney - 09-19-2006 01:31 PM
pointmeatthesky Wrote:This thread makes me laugh.I don't know if I want to laugh or just cry for humanity. ???
Edited By Sydney on 1158701498
- Jumpy - 09-19-2006 01:41 PM
Sometimes I'll stir the pot here... and then after a couple of hateful posts by others, I realize I didn't need to stir it. :D
- HowLeTT - 09-19-2006 04:00 PM
Gretsch Wrote:I'm still not wearing any pants.fwiw: odds are that he's still not wearing any pants.
- mabewa - 09-19-2006 05:49 PM
Quote:pakistanifloyd is an idiot, he is a moron, and anything else. He is a coward....he needs to be rid of....he actually thinks bush is a war criminal, he is as much as a moron as any other liberal.
the idiot who wrote the peom should also be done with. I'm tired of all the anti USA and anti Bush. War has to happen to acheive peace and demorcracy. I dont care if people in the middle east die for this to happen. In the long run it will save more lives with a stable government.
WAR HAS TO HAPPEN. Its sad but true, and when war happens, people die, as sad as it is. War is necessary at times.
I dont care if Bush lied or had an agenda before 9/11 about Iraq. Sadamm had to be taken out. Did people forget that innocent people were dying in iraq? I guess its ok for them to die to a dictator......
i am tired of the all the conspiracy therorists who say 9/11 was an inside job.....complete and utter morons who need something to hang their liberal hat on....you make me sick....
anyways, all the anti bush people and anti war people go blow yourself up....
I have a great deal of pity for you. You have repeatedly stated that on this board that people need to be "gotten rid of" "taken out to a field and ^&*%," "done with" etc. Obviously, free speech is deeply disturbing to you, and living in a democracy brings you a great deal of stress and pain. Unfortunately, your proposed solution, killing those who openly disagree with yer fearless leader, is unacceptable in this country and in other democracies.
May I suggest moving to Burma as a remedy for your ills? I was going to suggest China, but I've been there and found that people were more able/willing to criticize the government in private than I had thought. Saudi Arabia would be another appropriate place for you.
At any rate, as long as you live in the US, you will be forced to listen to people criticizing the government--it is, after all, the American way.
- Grguitarfreek100 - 09-19-2006 06:00 PM
amen, shalom, (islam thing)
- proudamerican - 09-19-2006 06:57 PM
it is unfortunate the libs in this country can't see through the smoke of their bongpipe...should our country be foolish enough to put these libs in power it will be the destruction of our once great nation....we will be a broken country...but hey , gwb can then kick back and let the libs handle these wonderful middle east fanatics..maybe invite them over for some rice and lamb....Wake up America, look what liberalism has done to us.
- Sydney - 09-19-2006 07:11 PM
Damn those libs. Kill'em all. Never did us any good. Look at how those liberals messed up the country in 1776. Damn you Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, John Adams...you and your crazy liberal revolution! You nearly destroyed our country!
Oh wait a minute! I think they gave us democracy. ???
Edited By Sydney on 1158721902
- mabewa - 09-19-2006 07:47 PM
It's kinda ironic, as an American who lived abroad for most of the 90's. When Bill Clinton was in power, the US was at a level of power and prestige internationally that it hadn't enjoyed for decades. The presidency of GWB has seen a remarkable collapse of our image and perceived power... and it's all the more remarkable considering the incredible sympathy and goodwill that we received after 9/11. Unfortunately, we are now seen as a kind of impotent giant, and that perception worries me a great deal.
As for "libs" being unable to fight and win wars... anybody remember WWII? Roosevelt and Truman were FAR more left-wing than Bill Clinton was, yet they led a country fighting a far more dangerous enemy. Then, we were dealing with industrialized, militarized states like Germany and Japan, and now we are dealing with a movement whose leader is widely believed to live in a cave.
Liberals can't fight? If that were true, we might be having this debate in German.
- proudamerican - 09-19-2006 08:00 PM
mabewa Wrote:It's kinda ironic, as an American who lived abroad for most of the 90's. When Bill Clinton was in power, the US was at a level of power and prestige internationally that it hadn't enjoyed for decades. The presidency of GWB has seen a remarkable collapse of our image and perceived power... and it's all the more remarkable considering the incredible sympathy and goodwill that we received after 9/11. Unfortunately, we are now seen as a kind of impotent giant, and that perception worries me a great deal.Bill was too busy getting bj's and sticking cigars where no good cigar should go to have to worry about dealing with the islamic threat.
As for "libs" being unable to fight and win wars... anybody remember WWII? Roosevelt and Truman were FAR more left-wing than Bill Clinton was, yet they led a country fighting a far more dangerous enemy. Then, we were dealing with industrialized, militarized states like Germany and Japan, and now we are dealing with a movement whose leader is widely believed to live in a cave.
Liberals can't fight? If that were true, we might be having this debate in German.
But hey, thats ok,..we got sean penn and cindy sheehan to set us straight....Since they seem to be the picture of the left and their ideals.
- RogerWaterz - 09-19-2006 08:09 PM
- pointmeatthesky - 09-19-2006 08:29 PM
proudamerican Wrote:it is unfortunate the libs in this country can't see through the smoke of their bongpipe...should our country be foolish enough to put these libs in power it will be the destruction of our once great nation....we will be a broken country...but hey , gwb can then kick back and let the libs handle these wonderful middle east fanatics..maybe invite them over for some rice and lamb....Wake up America, look what liberalism has done to us.******* hell, can you please learn how to debate!
Prove something, don't just shoot your mouth off.
- HowLeTT - 09-19-2006 09:18 PM
proudamerican Wrote:But hey, thats ok,..we got sean penn and cindy sheehan to set us straight....We got warehouses of butter
We got oceans of wine
We got famine when we need it
We got designer crime
We got Mercedes
We got Porsche, Ferrari and Rolls Royce
Yeah, we got choice
- RogerWaterz - 09-19-2006 09:58 PM
Sydney Wrote:Damn those libs. Kill'em all. Never did us any good. Look at how those liberals messed up the country in 1776. Damn you Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, John Adams...you and your crazy liberal revolution! You nearly destroyed our country!AMEN!!! BRAVO.
Oh wait a minute! I think they gave us democracy. ???
- proudamerican - 09-19-2006 10:01 PM
Reread your posting and see how ignorant you sound...call the president a liar..going to war over oil...boy thats a sad worn out story you leftys like to use.
Every other countries intelligence said they had the missiles, even saddams own guys, believed it. When you say you have them and act like a jackass shooting @ our planes when you signed your treaty from the gulf war ,you are asking to get your butt spanked....All the nut jobs we are fighting now, are saddams goons and syrias nutballs. They need to be destroyed so the decent people of iraq can actually have something of a life without fear.
I know a few iraqis who escaped saddams grip. They left their friends and families to escape. I heard how life was under him. I heard how so many of their friends were murdered. They are very thankful for the removal of saddam and though life is far from perfect there, it is better and they actually were able to go back and see their family for the 1st time in 10 yrs.
The left in this country sure loves to bitch about human rights and blahblahblah...but when a dictator suppresses his people and we got terrorists running around blowing up innocent people, hell, its there problem right???...Don't wanna hear what a great prez Bill C. was, How did he do in Rwanda?...After all being the 1st black president and all, i was shocked he didnt try to stop the machete massacre down there...i did a Larry King..running of thoughts i thought you would like that since thats your news outlet.
any more poems Robert Frost Jr?
- mabewa - 09-19-2006 11:18 PM
Proudamerican, it's kind of ironic you bring up Saddam's human-rights record. In the 1980's, I was a young liberal writing letters for Amnestry International about Saddam's human rights records... and meanwhile Reagan and Bush's father were wholeheartedly supporting Saddam. In the 1980's, when the Democrats wanted to put sanctions on Saddam for his human-rights record, (after the videos of the Kurds getting gassed came out) it was Bush's dad who made a speech to Congress about how Saddam was our ally and we needed him. It was only after he attacked Kuwait, a country that we bought a lot of oil from, that Saddam's human rights record suddenly became an issuel. If he had just stuck to attacking Kurds and Iranians, he would probably still be on our payroll.
So, as you see, the American right has no moral credibility on Saddam Hussein whatsover. It's almost laughably hypocritcal for right-wingers to talk about Saddam's human rights record. If you were for Saddam when he was committing his worst atrocities (in the 80's), then you can't be against those atrocities now.
And, yes, we DO need to do something about terrorists running around and blowing people up... that's why I (and most liberals) supported the invasion of Afghanistan. But, "when a dictator supresses his people," that's another story. There are MANY dictators in this world--some of them arguably worse than Saddam. If that is the criteria we use for invading a country, we have LOTS of invading to do. You want to invade Burma? China? Saudi Arabia? Somalia? North Korea?
The fact is, America simply can't afford to be the world's policeman. We need to save our tax money to fight organizations that actually attacked us, like Al Quaida. It makes no sense at all to attack an enemy of Al Quaida like Saddam when we haven't even caught Bin Laden yet.
As for "the people in Iraq can have something of a life without fear," that's also ironic, because Iraq has actually become a much more dangerous place since the invasion. In the old days, if you stayed the hell away from politics, then you were OK. Nowadays, you might get murdered for your politics (same as when Saddam was in power), but you might also get murdered for your religion or, if you're a woman, you might get attacked for wearing the wrong clothes. It's gotten so bad that Christians are fleeing the country, moving to Syria and Jordan, when in the old days, Iraq was considered to be a good candidate for the most religiously tolerant country in the Middle East. In many ways, Iraq is arguably getting worse, not better.
Personally, I'm not necessarily for leaving Iraq. I think that we have to make the situation acceptable before we leave. My bigest problem with Bush concerning Iraq is that he seems completely unable to do so. I mean, even many Republicans agree that Rumsfeld is totally incompetant, but Bush won't fire him, no matter how many times he messes up. The Democrats have a very good record of nation building (think postwar Japan, Germany, or more recent examples like Bosnia). I don't think we'll see any progress on Iraq until we get a new government.
Edited By mabewa on 1158736976
- Jumpy - 09-20-2006 05:53 AM
proudamerican Wrote:it is unfortunate the libs in this country can't see through the smoke of their bongpipe...This "libs" thing cracks me up. What is it? Your fear of three-syllable words? Judging from your grammar, I'd say so.
The nice thing about "libs" is its sister nickname, "cons" for conservatives, which not only serves as a nice shortening for slow people like you, but "cons" is an equally appropriate nickname for the cons who frequently land in jail for money-laundering, tax evasion, and embezzlement.
- Skol - 09-20-2006 06:07 AM
proudamerican Wrote:Reread your posting and see how ignorant you sound...call the president a liar..going to war over oil...boy thats a sad worn out story you leftys like to use.It maybe sad and worn out but it's true. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to realise what the US was up to.
Every other countries intelligence said they had the missiles, even saddams own guys, believed it. When you say you have them and act like a jackass shooting @ our planes when you signed your treaty from the gulf war ,you are asking to get your butt spanked....All the nut jobs we are fighting now, are saddams goons and syrias nutballs. They need to be destroyed so the decent people of iraq can actually have something of a life without fear.
I know a few iraqis who escaped saddams grip. They left their friends and families to escape. I heard how life was under him. I heard how so many of their friends were murdered. They are very thankful for the removal of saddam and though life is far from perfect there, it is better and they actually were able to go back and see their family for the 1st time in 10 yrs.
The left in this country sure loves to bitch about human rights and blahblahblah...but when a dictator suppresses his people and we got terrorists running around blowing up innocent people, hell, its there problem right???...Don't wanna hear what a great prez Bill C. was, How did he do in Rwanda?...After all being the 1st black president and all, i was shocked he didnt try to stop the machete massacre down there...i did a Larry King..running of thoughts i thought you would like that since thats your news outlet.
any more poems Robert Frost Jr?
Didn't Hans Blix go into Iraq before your oil loving daddy's boy, George Dubya invaded and not find any weapons of mass destruction? The UK and US governments lied about the WMD issue, even Tony Blair has hinted at the fact he knew there was none. Iraq posed NO IMMEDIATE THREAT to the west.
I don't care much for you using the argument about the state of life for Iraqi's under Saddam. If that was the case for invasion why don't we invade and liberate Sudan or Zimbabwe? Would that be because Bush has bugger all to gain from those conflicts?
- Sydney - 09-20-2006 06:22 AM
Jumpy Wrote::laugh: What an interesting observation Jumpy. You just made my day! :)proudamerican Wrote:it is unfortunate the libs in this country can't see through the smoke of their bongpipe...This "libs" thing cracks me up. What is it? Your fear of three-syllable words? Judging from your grammar, I'd say so.
The nice thing about "libs" is its sister nickname, "cons" for conservatives, which not only serves as a nice shortening for slow people like you, but "cons" is an equally appropriate nickname for the cons who frequently land in jail for money-laundering, tax evasion, and embezzlement.
- captain2man - 09-20-2006 07:07 AM
The posts from ProudAmerican are hysterical....is this Stephen Colbert doing a parody??
As soon as I hear someone start using the word "lib" - I know I'm in for an absolute hoot....probably a regurgiation of every brainwashed flag waving bumper sticker and those genius callers into Sean Hannity & Rush Limbaugh's radio shows.
ProudAmerican - I applaud you for your satire!!!
I know - it's so worn out....listening to us "libs" talk about how Bush lied, how we went to Iraq for the oil.....how ignorant we all are. I know.....truth is ignorance...I know, I know. That same old truth flying around over & over...it must get so dull & worn out to listen to.
Of course - I know you're not serious when you think the U.S. went to take out Saddam for human rights violations - when there are dictators in Africa that make Saddam's regime look like Disneyland....yet - we don't go there....why?.....because there's NOTHING IN IT FOR US.
We SUPPORTED Iraq when it was convenient, we SUPPORTED Iran when it was convenient....we SUPPORT Saudi Arabia because it IS convenient.
Ahh yes....I love this picture....nothing like integrity:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/11/Donald_saddam.jpg
- welcome_to_the_dark_side - 09-20-2006 09:19 AM
proudamerican Wrote:Reread your posting and see how ignorant you sound...call the president a liar..going to war over oil...boy thats a sad worn out story you leftys like to use.Hey proudsomething, here's a new poem for you
Every other countries intelligence said they had the missiles, even saddams own guys, believed it. When you say you have them and act like a jackass shooting @ our planes when you signed your treaty from the gulf war ,you are asking to get your butt spanked....All the nut jobs we are fighting now, are saddams goons and syrias nutballs. They need to be destroyed so the decent people of iraq can actually have something of a life without fear.
I know a few iraqis who escaped saddams grip. They left their friends and families to escape. I heard how life was under him. I heard how so many of their friends were murdered. They are very thankful for the removal of saddam and though life is far from perfect there, it is better and they actually were able to go back and see their family for the 1st time in 10 yrs.
The left in this country sure loves to bitch about human rights and blahblahblah...but when a dictator suppresses his people and we got terrorists running around blowing up innocent people, hell, its there problem right???...Don't wanna hear what a great prez Bill C. was, How did he do in Rwanda?...After all being the 1st black president and all, i was shocked he didnt try to stop the machete massacre down there...i did a Larry King..running of thoughts i thought you would like that since thats your news outlet.
any more poems Robert Frost Jr?
Mass destuction missiles were not found
No connection between al qaida and saddam
And Ben laden's still free, still free, still free....
More violence in iraq and afghanistan
US nation is more hated than ever
But our leaders are still here, still here, still here....
Shall i ask roger to write the music part?
:;):
- Grguitarfreek100 - 09-20-2006 10:50 AM
I am a liberal ill say it right now. I choose to solve problems based on everyones perspectives instead of hiding in my hole like the fanatic conservatives. Notice im not bashing all conservatives. Just people like ProudAmerican. Ill say it right now. I apologised to pakistanifloyd for calling him an idiot, but proudamerican, you are close to being the most idiotic and closed minded person ive ever heard of. You need to open your eyes before deciding who needs to be "blown up". Thats not an option.
we cant get out of iraq until the job is done, thats true, but we shouldntve gone in in the first place. Did you know it was first known as Operation Iraqi Liberation, aka OIL, but quickly changed it, for obvious resons, to Operation Iraqi Freedom
I dont hide from war, but i support alternative solutions.
Liberals are the ones that get things done. Conservatives choose to hide and wait out the storm, while liberals choose to find ways to stop the storm in the future. We are causing more harm in the middle east than we are helping.
- Jumpy - 09-20-2006 01:52 PM
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." --Winston Churchill
- proudamerican - 09-20-2006 05:22 PM
Grguitarfreek100 Wrote:I am a liberal ill say it right now. I choose to solve problems based on everyones perspectives instead of hiding in my hole like the fanatic conservatives. Notice im not bashing all conservatives. Just people like ProudAmerican. Ill say it right now. I apologised to pakistanifloyd for calling him an idiot, but proudamerican, you are close to being the most idiotic and closed minded person ive ever heard of. You need to open your eyes before deciding who needs to be "blown up". Thats not an option.liberals get it done!!!...roflmao...oh my god, a few of you certainly are funny. Keep looking the other way so you won't know when your gonna get flattened.....i know it will break your heart to know it, but i'll be leaving you guys...good luck in your rose colored lives, remember drugs are bad for you ....oh...and save the poems, tell you know who to save his poems, they really do suck...(really,really bad!)
we cant get out of iraq until the job is done, thats true, but we shouldntve gone in in the first place. Did you know it was first known as Operation Iraqi Liberation, aka OIL, but quickly changed it, for obvious resons, to Operation Iraqi Freedom
I dont hide from war, but i support alternative solutions.
Liberals are the ones that get things done. Conservatives choose to hide and wait out the storm, while liberals choose to find ways to stop the storm in the future. We are causing more harm in the middle east than we are helping.
- mabewa - 09-20-2006 07:56 PM
I too am beginning to suspect that "proudamerica" is a liberal doing a parody of a neo-con bushbot. If not, it's pretty ironic that he didn't notice that this thread was started by a liberal (Jumpy) who has some disagreements with Roger's current stage show.
Anyway, proudamerican, yep, liberals do get it done all right. Reagan and Bush gave this country huge deficits, and Clinton turned them into surpluses. Then, in no time at all, Bush turned them back into deficits.
Bush thought he could simultaneously:
1). Cut taxes on the wealthy.
2). Fight a war and
3). Increase the size of the federal government.
A 5-year old with a pocket calculator could have figured out the inevitable result.
In the old days, Americans were asked to kick down and tighten our belts during wartime. That's when "patriotism" actually meant something more than having a flag-sticker on one's SUV. Nowadays, we aren't expected to pay for wars: our grandchildren can do that. It's the neo-con way.
In defense of REAL conservatives, old fashioned fiscal conservatives believed in balanced budgets.
How much can Bush actually care about his war in Iraq when he doesn't want to actually pay for it?
http://nationalpriorities.org/index.p....mid=182
Edited By mabewa on 1158822278
- Pinks Pig - 09-20-2006 11:10 PM
Back on thread..
Wise words written by Roger on his pig,Pinks Pig.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....Tweeter :unclesam:
- mabewa - 09-21-2006 12:26 AM
...and yes, Jumpy's post was friggin' brilliant, and gave me a great laugh.
- Jumpy - 09-21-2006 05:49 AM
mabewa Wrote:...and yes, Jumpy's post was friggin' brilliant, and gave me a great laugh.I have at times been flip here. And at times, detached (the Winston Churchill quote, which I admit can be twisted to accommodate any side in this debate. I simply loved the quote.)
Mostly, I've been amused by the debate, even though what's long lost is the original point of my thread: that Roger's over-the-top political grandstanding not only doesn't have a place in a rock and roll show, but it lacks the artistic subtlety of his most-cherished lyrical/political work.
But for the record, yes I am a liberal, registered as an Independent voter.
Edited By Jumpy on 1158846620
- captain2man - 09-21-2006 03:55 PM
Jumpy Wrote:Mostly, I've been amused by the debate, even though what's long lost is the original point of my thread: that Roger's over-the-top political grandstanding not only doesn't have a place in a rock and roll show, but it lacks the artistic subtlety of his most-cherished lyrical/political work.I 100% disagree with the first part of your point.
I 100% agree with the second point.
Edited By captain2man on 1158882928
- scalzmoney - 09-21-2006 06:22 PM
Jumpy Wrote:But for the record, yes I am a liberal, registered as an Independent voter.You sound like Dennis Miller to me, Jumpy.
He made a living skewering politicians in his stand-up act, and his weekly show was like an R rated Daily Show, a grown-up version of 'question authority'.
Then, as he puts it '9/11 happened'. And for a few years after those were his bona fides for supporting the Bush Doctrine.
Basically, he said 'you have to trust me, I don't like Bush, but I support his policies on terrorism.'
Now, he's off tv. His right-wing show on CNBC didn't last and he's seen as an opportunist, redefining himself to suit the times. Maybe he believes the crap he was spewing, but no one else did.
So stop telling us your political affiliation. It doesn't lend credibility to your stupid argument that Roger is chipping away at 'freedom' or whatever by criticizing President Bush.
Remember, everyone reading this, no one on this thread criticizing Roger has suggested what he CAN use in his show. What he SHOULD say. No one wants to. Because they don't want it to happen to them.
I just heard an audience recording of the 9/8 show in Mass. The standout in an otherwise polite, but exuberant audience is the idiot who screams his lungs out for 40 seconds following 'Leaving Beiruit'. He yells 'what about 9/11, Roger, you chickenshit?!' I'd guess that he left the arena immediately what with his objection to the material and all, but I doubt it.
- mabewa - 09-22-2006 03:44 AM
Quote:It doesn't lend credibility to your stupid argument that Roger is chipping away at 'freedom' or whatever by criticizing President Bush.
Ah, just when the discussion was starting to become civil...
Did Jumpy actually say that Roger was chipping away at freedom? Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't hear him write anything like that.
- scalzmoney - 09-22-2006 08:09 AM
Mabewa-
I'm still asking him WHAT he's saying.
I'm still asking WHAT they want.
I said 'chipping away at freedom' as a satire of WHATEVER his argument with Roger actually is.
I think they just want Roger to be a nice man or something.
Notice how you don't comment on any of the substance of what I wrote. If you think its rubbish, say so.
No, I said his argument is 'stupid' which it is. Prove me wrong.
Quote:Remember, everyone reading this, no one on this thread criticizing Roger has suggested what he CAN use in his show. What he SHOULD say. No one wants to. Because they don't want it to happen to them.
I just heard an audience recording of the 9/8 show in Mass. The standout in an otherwise polite, but exuberant audience is the idiot who screams his lungs out for 40 seconds following 'Leaving Beiruit'. He yells 'what about 9/11, Roger, you chickenshit?!' I'd guess that he left the arena immediately what with his objection to the material and all, but I doubt it.
Edited By scalzmoney on 1158941414
- Jumpy - 09-22-2006 08:19 AM
scalzmoney Wrote:[quote="Jumpy"]So stop telling us your political affiliation. It doesn't lend credibility to your stupid argument that Roger is chipping away at 'freedom' or whatever by criticizing President Bush.No, I won't stop clearing the air about my political affiliations when everyone so consistently gets it wrong.
I'm a registered Independent who hardly EVER votes Republican. I mostly vote Democrat. Sometimes I vote third party.
Some of you can't seem to understand that it's not only the rightwingers who are sick of Roger's ill-timed and inappropriate grandstanding.
Edited By Jumpy on 1158942118
- Jumpy - 09-22-2006 08:31 AM
scalzmoney Wrote:I just heard an audience recording of the 9/8 show in Mass. The standout in an otherwise polite, but exuberant audience is the idiot who screams his lungs out for 40 seconds following 'Leaving Beiruit'. He yells 'what about 9/11, Roger, you chickenshit?!' I'd guess that he left the arena immediately what with his objection to the material and all, but I doubt it.Yeah... the problem with audience recordings is that they tend to only pick up what's loudest, which would be the amplified band and the audience members closest to the mic.
I really have no idea how I'll react, let alone those around me. I don't expect I'll leave. I paid good money to get in. Roger may or may not include his soapbox. I may or may not react. We'll see.
But no, I won't leave. First, I want to witness it all, so that I can appropriately praise and criticize the concert. And also, I want to see the things that made me a fan of Roger in the first place.
Has anyone considered that Roger is doing this because controversy generates publicity. And publicity, in turn, sells tickets? The Pittsburgh show is being aggressively promoted on TV, and when I checked two days ago, you could still purchase pavillion seats. I don't recall those tickets being available when he came through a few years ago, and I certainly don't remember TV ads.
Perhaps this is all just a stunt to counter slow ticket sales?
Edited By Jumpy on 1158942843
- welcome_to_the_dark_side - 09-22-2006 11:21 AM
Jumpy Wrote:[quote="scalzmoney"]You can also see this differently.
Has anyone considered that Roger is doing this because controversy generates publicity. And publicity, in turn, sells tickets? The Pittsburgh show is being aggressively promoted on TV, and when I checked two days ago, you could still purchase pavillion seats. I don't recall those tickets being available when he came through a few years ago, and I certainly don't remember TV ads.
Perhaps this is all just a stunt to counter slow ticket sales?
The result of what he's doing can be disastrous in the sells. Let's say i am a fan of bush, i'll not buy a ticket for his concert. So if half the town is for bush he lost half the potentiel of the sells.
Personally, i think roger is doing this by taking big risks and he don't care about the sells, i call this having BIG BALLS
- Philintheflesh - 09-23-2006 05:24 PM
welcome_to_the_dark_side Wrote:Personally, i think roger is doing this by taking big risks and he don't care about the sells, i call this having BIG BALLSYes. Of course.
If he was interested in selling shed-loads of tickets, he`d be less controversial....but he has no interest in turning into an anodyne, Gilmour-led Pink Floyd....thank Christ.
- mabewa - 09-23-2006 06:11 PM
Once again, I think that the Gilmour comparisons are pointless. David is David, and Roger is Roger. While I can see why some people think that Roger being over-the-top with his politics on this tour, my strongest feeling is just that Roger is being Roger. I give Dave the same kind of slack. Why do we PF fans always have to compare members of PF to each other, when there are so many other musicians we could be comparing them to?
- Philintheflesh - 09-24-2006 01:45 AM
mabewa Wrote:Once again, I think that the Gilmour comparisons are pointless. Why do we PF fans always have to compare members of PF to each otherThey don`t always have to compare them, but in this context, Gilmour comparisons aren`t pointless, mabewa.
I suspect the people criticising Waters the most (I mean people booing in auditoriums, I hasten to add...NOT anybody on this website), are PF fans (not Waters fans) who want to just turn up, switch off their brains, and listen to some old Pink Floyd tunes because in their minds the songs were nice and apolitical (I`ve got news....the pig was never just a pig, even in 1977).
Gilmour is a fine musician, but if 20 years of him at the helm, has made PF fans blunted to politics by the Gilmour/Samson world view (or lack of it)....then I think that is sad, and certainly worthy of comparison.
Edited By Philintheflesh on 1159091594
- Jumpy - 09-25-2006 11:45 AM
Philintheflesh Wrote:(I`ve got news....the pig was never just a pig, even in 1977).I think the pig can be anything you want it to be.
- welcome_to_the_dark_side - 09-25-2006 12:11 PM
Jumpy Wrote:I think the pig can be anything you want it to be.Don't agree on that.
That pig means something specific in roger's words.
- Jumpy - 09-25-2006 12:17 PM
welcome_to_the_dark_side Wrote:I think Roger's words can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. At times, I heard 20,000 people singing along to Roger's best words last night (most notably, the "Dark Side" songs). I can believe that those words mean the same thing to all those people. The great thing about lyrics and poetry is that they are often open to intrepretation.Jumpy Wrote:I think the pig can be anything you want it to be.Don't agree on that.
That pig means something specific in roger's words.
I consider myself a fairly literate person, but I never read George Orwell's "Animal Farm," so I had no literal reference point for the pigs.
Frankly, a giant inflatable pig is just cool and funny. And just because some of us see no more to it than that doesn't mean we are stupid.
Edited By Jumpy on 1159216038
- welcome_to_the_dark_side - 09-25-2006 12:51 PM
Jumpy Wrote:Hey jumpy,welcome_to_the_dark_side Wrote:I think Roger's words can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. At times, I heard 20,000 people singing along to Roger's best words last night (most notably, the "Dark Side" songs). I can believe that those words mean the same thing to all those people. The great thing about lyrics and poetry is that they are often open to intrepretation.Jumpy Wrote:I think the pig can be anything you want it to be.Don't agree on that.
That pig means something specific in roger's words.
I consider myself a fairly literate person, but I never read George Orwell's "Animal Farm," so I had no literal reference point for the pigs.
Frankly, a giant inflatable pig is just cool and funny. And just because some of us see no more to it than that doesn't mean we are stupid.
I am not saying you are stupid, sorry if my post let you interpret that.
I just wanted to point that the pig means something for roger and for sure he is not using it to be cool and funny but to complete the lyrics in his songs. Especially because he's using it during sheep.
In roger's words that pig represents the leaders who have power and with that power that pig controls sheep (followers)
But of course if it's only cool and funny for you, it's your right.
:;):
- Jumpy - 09-25-2006 12:56 PM
I almost started another thread about this, but there's already too much controversy flying around here with my name attached to it:
As an environmentalist, I had to wonder the ultimate fate of the giant inflatable pig last night. Anyone who has seen the outdoor version of the show knows what I mean.
In that case, a giant inflatable pig is NOT funny!
:;):
- welcome_to_the_dark_side - 09-25-2006 01:13 PM
Jumpy Wrote:I almost started another thread about this, but there's already too much controversy flying around here with my name attached to it:Haven't you heard about it's landing in the white house?
As an environmentalist, I had to wonder the ultimate fate of the giant inflatable pig last night. Anyone who has seen the outdoor version of the show knows what I mean.
In that case, a giant inflatable pig is NOT funny!
:;):
:D only a joke