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- Rogacz - 08-23-2004 01:38 AM
I`m listening to Amused To Death for -n time today and I went curious, is Roger atheist?
This sarcastic examples "God wants ..." and then he sings in Perfect Sense "Man is a tool in the hands of great God Almighty?".
What do You think?
Edited By Rogacz on 1093253963
- no pussyfooting - 08-23-2004 03:13 AM
Rogacz Wrote:I`m listening to Amused To Death for -n time today and I went curious, is Roger atheist?Roger is an atheist but he is not bashing religion in there. He represents how religions is used as a tool for bad actions.
This sarcastic examples "God wants ..." and then he sings in Perfect Sense "Man is a tool in the hands of great God Almighty?".
What do You think?
- Rogacz - 08-23-2004 03:47 AM
I haven`t said he is bashing religion and I never will.
That`s fantastic, this man is one damn good piece of talent.
Now I gotta spent some hours listening to Radio K.A.O.S and swimming in lyrics.
- Seamus - 08-23-2004 06:03 AM
Rogacz Wrote:I haven`t said he is bashing religion and I never will.Roger is the man, you know. Enuff said.
That`s fantastic, this man is one damn good piece of talent.
Now I gotta spent some hours listening to Radio K.A.O.S and swimming in lyrics.
- Rogacz - 08-23-2004 10:23 AM
Seamus Wrote:Roger is the man, you know. Enuff said.Right.
- FishBowlWYWH - 08-23-2004 12:35 PM
i have respect for him, just so hes not on of those people that yells in christians faces "Prove god is real! prove it, prove it!!!"
i think he is a little too smart for that
- Space Cadet - 08-24-2004 03:10 PM
Knowledge is power.
roger is the most powerful man on earth.
- floydianyid - 08-24-2004 05:19 PM
yeah rogers ok but cut all this he's the man ****
- bak2life - 08-24-2004 06:03 PM
That stinks if he is an atheist. :(
- Rogacz - 08-25-2004 01:49 AM
bak2life Wrote:That stinks if he is an atheist. :(Why?
Is he worse than others, just because he won`t let any religious topics shadow on his brain?
Nonsense, the point is to be a man, good man, and he proved he is.
As FantasticFloyd said:
Knowledge is the power.
- bak2life - 08-25-2004 11:37 AM
Rogacz Wrote:Oh yeah he is a good man, and that's great. I'm glad he is, but that's not the point. It's not all about how good you are, if you want to know the truth. Being a good person doesn't save us. And yes Roger has knowledge... as a musician. Roger doesn't know everything. Just because he is a great writer, musician, etc., doesn't mean he is the most powerful man on earth. Roger Waters isn't God, he's just a normal person like you or me. He's no better or worse. There is only one who can save you on that last day, and I promise you it's not Roger Waters.bak2life Wrote:That stinks if he is an atheist. :(Why?
Is he worse than others, just because he won`t let any religious topics shadow on his brain?
Nonsense, the point is to be a man, good man, and he proved he is.
As FantasticFloyd said:
Knowledge is the power.
- Seamus - 08-25-2004 11:45 AM
- Rogacz - 08-25-2004 01:11 PM
I never said Roger is a god. I do not understand people saying "Oh gosh, Dave/Roger is my god". Of course this is pointles. I just wanted to mention that being atheist doasn`t put a black line through someone`s name.
- wowser - 08-25-2004 02:20 PM
bak2life Wrote:I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'saved'. Anyway, you are right to point out that Roger's views are not gospel, and he is just like the rest of us, and his views are open to questioning.Rogacz Wrote:Oh yeah he is a good man, and that's great. I'm glad he is, but that's not the point. It's not all about how good you are, if you want to know the truth. Being a good person doesn't save us. And yes Roger has knowledge... as a musician. Roger doesn't know everything. Just because he is a great writer, musician, etc., doesn't mean he is the most powerful man on earth. Roger Waters isn't God, he's just a normal person like you or me. He's no better or worse. There is only one who can save you on that last day, and I promise you it's not Roger Waters.bak2life Wrote:That stinks if he is an atheist. :(Why?
Is he worse than others, just because he won`t let any religious topics shadow on his brain?
Nonsense, the point is to be a man, good man, and he proved he is.
As FantasticFloyd said:
Knowledge is the power.
I like what Robyn Hitchcock said, how religion hijacks spirituality. And yes, spirituality is a good thing, as a vague a term as it may be, whilst religion has a lot to answer for.
Also, i very much doubt that Fantastic Floyd coined the term 'Knowledge is Power'
- bak2life - 08-25-2004 02:21 PM
Rogacz Wrote:As FantasticFloyd said:Why do you all say knowledge is power? And he is the most powerful man on earth? How?
Knowledge is the power.
Edited By bak2life on 1093472581
- wowser - 08-25-2004 02:32 PM
bak2life Wrote:This is commonly referred to as being 'obsolutis bullshituis'Rogacz Wrote:As FantasticFloyd said:And he is the most powerful man on earth? How?
Knowledge is the power.
- Oobleck42 - 08-25-2004 02:45 PM
bak2life Wrote:There is only one who can save you on that last day, and I promise you it's not Roger Waters.How about William Shatner?
![[Image: st_shatner_rifle.jpg]](http://www.space-debris.com/st_shatner_rifle.jpg)
- Pink Prism - 08-25-2004 02:55 PM
Hehe thats a good one Oobleck :D
Anyway. First you have to calculate the odds of the possibility that this "god" exists. Then you have to calculate the odds for finding the right religion, the others must piss him off right?
so in the end it must be safer to ignore religion and do what you think is best instead of listening to some crappy old book that's been modified by evil priest's and fat popes for thousands of years. ^^. Atheism is the future. And im proud of belonging to the future.
- wowser - 08-25-2004 03:03 PM
Pink Prism Wrote:And im proud of belonging to the future.words that are hard to take seriously coming from a man who
has an ELP sig
- bak2life - 08-25-2004 03:30 PM
Pink Prism Wrote:Hehe thats a good one Oobleck :DThere is nothing to calculate. You're thinking way too much. It is all about Faith. If God suddenly appeared in front of us, we would all believe. Our time on Earth is said to be only a second compared to our time after death. Life on Earth is only the beginning, a small part of our lives. All you need to do is accept the true Savior, and confess your sins. That's it. One day you will die, just like everyone else. You can spend right now, what may seem like a long time for you, living the way you want. But let me ask you, "How are you going to live for all of eternity?"
Anyway. First you have to calculate the odds of the possibility that this "god" exists. Then you have to calculate the odds for finding the right religion, the others must piss him off right?
^^. Atheism is the future. And im proud of belonging to the future.
Edited By bak2life on 1093476956
- Oobleck42 - 08-25-2004 03:51 PM
bak2life Wrote:There is nothing to calculate. You're thinking way too much. It is all about Faith. If God suddenly appeared in front of us, we would all believe. Our time on Earth is said to be only a second compared to our time after death. Life on Earth is only the beginning, a small part of our lives. All you need to do is accept the true Savior, and confess your sins. That's it. One day you will die, just like everyone else. You can spend right now, what may seem like a long time for you, living the way you want. But let me ask you, "How are you going to live for all of eternity?"Oh, please. The concept of "unquestioning faith" is one of the worst things about Christianity.
- Steve Hill - 08-25-2004 04:11 PM
The theory is that Religion was created in man's mind as he evolved to a) keep man sane and b) to preserve law and order. If you believed there was nothing after death, you would not enjoy life as much as you would always be avoiding death. If you misbehaved and did things that were not in the interests of the society as a whole, you were led to believe that bad things would either happen to you or the community. This is also where human sacrifice stems from, appeasing the gods for wrong-doings.
We are more evolved now and whilst the majority still believe in some form of god(s), many are now athiest or even agnostic, (not sure, but don't follow any religious thought). This is because those who are athiest believe that they can lead their lives almost exactly the same as a devout Christian, without following exactly the same rules and morals and they will both end up dead and there is no afterlife.
The most chaotic societies in the ancient world were the ones with no form of religion. This would back up the theory to an extent. Animals also seem to not follow any form of higher power and the way they behave, if they were human they would be sinners.
- floydianyid - 08-25-2004 04:14 PM
oh what a load of crap
- wowser - 08-25-2004 04:20 PM
bak2life Wrote:There is not one 'true saviour' and we do not need to repent all our sins. I think i'm going different ways to my religion. I still believe in God, but i don't think Jesus was all he was cracked up to be, and the entire Catholic religion is crackpotPink Prism Wrote:Hehe thats a good one Oobleck :DThere is nothing to calculate. You're thinking way too much. It is all about Faith. If God suddenly appeared in front of us, we would all believe. Our time on Earth is said to be only a second compared to our time after death. Life on Earth is only the beginning, a small part of our lives. All you need to do is accept the true Savior, and confess your sins. That's it. One day you will die, just like everyone else. You can spend right now, what may seem like a long time for you, living the way you want. But let me ask you, "How are you going to live for all of eternity?"
Anyway. First you have to calculate the odds of the possibility that this "god" exists. Then you have to calculate the odds for finding the right religion, the others must piss him off right?
^^. Atheism is the future. And im proud of belonging to the future.
- floydianyid - 08-25-2004 04:44 PM
wowser Wrote:but i don't think Jesus was all he was cracked up to be, and the entire Catholic religion is crackpoti'm catholic i think, not by choice of course :laugh: but that comment is evil, evil i tell you, may you burn in hell
no not really, your quite right :)
- no pussyfooting - 08-25-2004 09:51 PM
wowser Wrote:ROFL! true, true...Pink Prism Wrote:And im proud of belonging to the future.words that are hard to take seriously coming from a man who
has an ELP sig
I think this religion bashing should stop in here. even though im an atheist, it kind of insults me.
- Rogacz - 08-26-2004 01:19 AM
bak2life Wrote:How fine are You in reading and understanding?Rogacz Wrote:As FantasticFloyd said:Why do you all say knowledge is power? And he is the most powerful man on earth? How?
Knowledge is the power.
I said KNOWLEDGE IS POWER
NOT ROGER WATERS IS POWER
- bak2life - 08-26-2004 11:01 AM
Like I said Oobleck, if God appeared in front of you right now and raised someone from the dead right in front of you, you would believe in him. It isn't that easy. This is the true test here on Earth. Heaven is a holy place, and not just anyone is allowed into it. You have to be worthy to go into heavenYou have to believe no matter if it makes since or not. I guarantee you and most people here feel lost, like they have no purpose in life. God will give you purpose. At one point you will rock bottom and you won't have anywhere to turn. Just turn to God and pray. Because no matter what you have done in the past, will all be wiped away with a clean slate.
What do you mean Wowser when you said "Jesus wasn't all he cracked up to be?" Aswell as, "We don't have to repent our sins." What's your outlook on all of it? What have you heard/learned. I am curious to hear why you think these things.
Edited By bak2life on 1093547829
- wowser - 08-26-2004 11:12 AM
bak2life Wrote:I like the idea of there being a God - it gives a purpose. But Jesus... I am sure he was a nice guy, but if someone came around today and said all those things (I assume the miracles were exagerated) then he would have just been dismissed, so why should we take it seriously just because it happened so long ago? Anyway, you ask why we shouldn't repent our sins. There is no point me answering this as our pardigms are totally irreconsilable (sorry about the spelling) I think it's nice that someone was around to point people in a kinder way of leading their lives, but the religion that was based around it went too far, especially around the turn of the 20th century, and in many parts of the UNited States. I could talk more, but i want to say too much and find it hard to control my flow of words without gabbering :)wowser Wrote:What do you mean "Jesus wasn't all he cracked up to be?" Why do we not have to repent our sins. I'm just curious to hear your opinion or your outlook on what you have heard.bak2life Wrote:There is not one 'true saviour' and we do not need to repent all our sins. I think i'm going different ways to my religion. I still believe in God, but i don't think Jesus was all he was cracked up to be, and the entire Catholic religion is crackpotPink Prism Wrote:Hehe thats a good one Oobleck :DThere is nothing to calculate. You're thinking way too much. It is all about Faith. If God suddenly appeared in front of us, we would all believe. Our time on Earth is said to be only a second compared to our time after death. Life on Earth is only the beginning, a small part of our lives. All you need to do is accept the true Savior, and confess your sins. That's it. One day you will die, just like everyone else. You can spend right now, what may seem like a long time for you, living the way you want. But let me ask you, "How are you going to live for all of eternity?"
Anyway. First you have to calculate the odds of the possibility that this "god" exists. Then you have to calculate the odds for finding the right religion, the others must piss him off right?
^^. Atheism is the future. And im proud of belonging to the future.
- Rogacz - 08-26-2004 11:28 AM
Jesus exists on paper. That`s the ONLY true evidence.
And if he exists on paper, than human wrote him.
^^^
Thinking logicaly.
- bak2life - 08-26-2004 11:32 AM
wowser Wrote:I like the idea of there being a God - it gives a purpose.Exactly. Purpose in life. Jesus wasn't only a nice guy, he created this Earth, and everything on it. You talk about him like he is just a normal guy. He created you and me, and everything else. He was thinking about you when he was creating Earth. How did we all appear on this Earth, how was everything made? Did we all suddenly just appear out of nowhere. Think how complicated everything is in this Earth. The sky, ocean, the human body (lungs, heart beating, our sight, etc). How did all this get created. Some people say dumb things like the "Big Bang Theory," and that makes no sense. I'll tell you the Good News. Jesus paid the penalty for you and me on the cross, and died to save us. He died for you and me. Nothing in the Bible is a tale or exaggerated story, it's all fact. All those things really happened. There is no limit to his power, he is God. He can raise the dead.
Edited By bak2life on 1093548802
- wowser - 08-26-2004 11:40 AM
you kinda ignored everything i said, there.
The Big Bang theory is FACT.
I like the idea that something created that Big Bang, something more spiritual, but a big bang, all the same.
You seriously can't think that everything just APPEARED and then say that teh Big Bang is crap, can you?
Jesus was just a guy who died on the cross, but he has been glorified as something more than what he was
- Oobleck42 - 08-26-2004 12:32 PM
bak2life Wrote:Like I said Oobleck, if God appeared in front of you right now and raised someone from the dead right in front of you, you would believe in him. It isn't that easy. This is the true test here on Earth. Heaven is a holy place, and not just anyone is allowed into it. You have to be worthy to go into heavenYou have to believe no matter if it makes since or not. I guarantee you and most people here feel lost, like they have no purpose in life. God will give you purpose. At one point you will rock bottom and you won't have anywhere to turn. Just turn to God and pray. Because no matter what you have done in the past, will all be wiped away with a clean slate.Believe it or not I used to believe exactly as you do. I was raised in a very religious family. I considered myself a Christian until I was about 20 years old (I'm 24 now). I prayed before every meal and before I went to bed every night. I am now an atheist.
You are very wrong about me feeling lost, though. Ever since I shook off the dogmas that I grew up with I feel free and hopeful. My only regret is that I did not break free sooner. I firmly believe that there is no God, Heaven, or Hell other than the ones we create for ourselves here on Earth or in our minds. I have many reasons for this, which I'd be more than happy to share with you, but I won't waste space on this message board going into that. If you're really interested feel free to PM me. But I would like to be respected for my beliefs, just as you would like to be respected for yours. I don't want anybdoy to try to convert me, but I am open for intelligent debate.
- bak2life - 08-26-2004 01:05 PM
Oobleck42 Wrote:That's fine. I respect all of your decisions. No way would I try to force anyone to do anything they truly didn't want to do. It really is your decision. I just wanted to put it out there because I wanted to. We aren't robots, we were created with our own minds, and we can do whatever we want. I would really like to hear what happened to you Oobleck. I am hoping that someone will get the answer they needed out of all this. I think there is somebody right now on this board reading this hearing the "Good News" for the first time. And I pray they can finally find meaning in life. And if anyone has any questions on how to know God, or how to find purpose, they can PM me or IM me anytime. Imagine someone being saved for all of eternity because they stumbled onto a Pink Floyd message board, and learned the true meaning of life.bak2life Wrote:Like I said Oobleck, if God appeared in front of you right now and raised someone from the dead right in front of you, you would believe in him. It isn't that easy. This is the true test here on Earth. Heaven is a holy place, and not just anyone is allowed into it. You have to be worthy to go into heavenYou have to believe no matter if it makes since or not. I guarantee you and most people here feel lost, like they have no purpose in life. God will give you purpose. At one point you will rock bottom and you won't have anywhere to turn. Just turn to God and pray. Because no matter what you have done in the past, will all be wiped away with a clean slate.Believe it or not I used to believe exactly as you do. I was raised in a very religious family. I considered myself a Christian until I was about 20 years old (I'm 24 now). I prayed before every meal and before I went to bed every night. I am now an atheist.
You are very wrong about me feeling lost, though. Ever since I shook off the dogmas that I grew up with I feel free and hopeful. My only regret is that I did not break free sooner. I firmly believe that there is no God, Heaven, or Hell other than the ones we create for ourselves here on Earth or in our minds. I have many reasons for this, which I'd be more than happy to share with you, but I won't waste space on this message board going into that. If you're really interested feel free to PM me. But I would like to be respected for my beliefs, just as you would like to be respected for yours. I don't want anybdoy to try to convert me, but I am open for intelligent debate.
- slygirl - 08-26-2004 01:16 PM
i think Roger hit the nail right on the head with that one!!! i feel like i was born and thrown into the world because God is a bit of a sadistic. and that im being played around by him as if i was a character in the PC "reality" game THE SIMS. :upside:
- slygirl - 08-26-2004 01:24 PM
whats ur opinion on this guys......my ex-father-in-law is a seriously devout Catholic and told me because i was baptized as a baby, no matter what i did in life, adultery, murder, id still automatically go to heaven. i asked him what about my brothers, who werent baptized, he said they were gonna go to hell, no matter what.
not only was i so f*****g pissed that he would say something so damn ignorant, but that he said that dumb s**t about my brothers. i hated religion and Catholicism most of my life (all the hypocracy and b.s.) but that comment sealed my hate for organized religions.
anyways, do u think i overreactted? cause i sure didnt!!
- Pink Prism - 08-26-2004 01:31 PM
Lets stop this discussion. You really can't tell people to think different about religion and politics, the only thing that may happen is that you will get angry with each other.
Edited By Pink Prism on 1093585175
- Oobleck42 - 08-26-2004 01:39 PM
bak2life Wrote:Here are a few of my squabbles with Christianity (at least the version of it that I was raised in) -Oobleck42 Wrote:That's fine. I respect all of your decisions. No way would I try to force anyone to do anything they truly didn't want to do. It really is your decision. I just wanted to put it out there because I wanted to. We aren't robots, we were created with our own minds, and we can do whatever we want. I would really like to hear what happened to you Oobleck. I am hoping that someone will get the answer they needed out of all this. I think there is somebody right now on this board reading this hearing the "Good News" for the first time. And I pray they can finally find meaning in life. And if anyone has any questions on how to know God, or how to find purpose, they can PM me or IM me anytime. Imagine someone being saved for all of eternity because they stumbled onto a Pink Floyd message board, and learned the true meaning of life.bak2life Wrote:Like I said Oobleck, if God appeared in front of you right now and raised someone from the dead right in front of you, you would believe in him. It isn't that easy. This is the true test here on Earth. Heaven is a holy place, and not just anyone is allowed into it. You have to be worthy to go into heavenYou have to believe no matter if it makes since or not. I guarantee you and most people here feel lost, like they have no purpose in life. God will give you purpose. At one point you will rock bottom and you won't have anywhere to turn. Just turn to God and pray. Because no matter what you have done in the past, will all be wiped away with a clean slate.Believe it or not I used to believe exactly as you do. I was raised in a very religious family. I considered myself a Christian until I was about 20 years old (I'm 24 now). I prayed before every meal and before I went to bed every night. I am now an atheist.
You are very wrong about me feeling lost, though. Ever since I shook off the dogmas that I grew up with I feel free and hopeful. My only regret is that I did not break free sooner. I firmly believe that there is no God, Heaven, or Hell other than the ones we create for ourselves here on Earth or in our minds. I have many reasons for this, which I'd be more than happy to share with you, but I won't waste space on this message board going into that. If you're really interested feel free to PM me. But I would like to be respected for my beliefs, just as you would like to be respected for yours. I don't want anybdoy to try to convert me, but I am open for intelligent debate.
1. The concept of faith. Christianity teaches that faith is a virtue, and that we don't have to understand God in order to believe him. This sounds very innocent and nice at first, but what it really means in practice is that people are encouraged to believe something that has no supporting evidence. This, to me, is wrong. In order to truly learn and grow a person must ask questions. They must have doubts. By using this doctrine of "childlike faith" Christianity (and other religions) exempt themselves from any kind of logical debate. This is because if it were in fact subjected to logical debate it would fall apart in no time.
2. Conversion. In order to be a true Christian you must convert other people. It is not enough to be happy with your own beliefs... a true Christian will spend every waking hour trying to "spread the good news" to "lost souls". I find this attitude very condescending. In many cases it turns people into bigots.
3. The Bible. Many Christians believe that the Bible is 100% God's word. In order to believe this I would have to believe that...
a) the world was created in seven days
b) men are superior to women
c) people used to live to be nearly 1000 years old
d) the earth is only about 6000 years old
e) people coexisted with dinosaurs and fire breathing sea dragons (see the book of Job)
...and many other ridiculous things that any logical person would not believe.
- slygirl - 08-26-2004 01:40 PM
Pink Prism Wrote:Lets stop this discussion. You really can't tell people to think different about religion and politics, the only thing that may happen is that you will be angry with each other.yea, perhaps you r right. i guess ill PM or IM oobleck and bak2life as suggested.
BTW.....what is a ELP sig?? what is ELP?? i saw wowser say it. dont know what that is.
- bak2life - 08-26-2004 01:53 PM
Oobleck42 Wrote:Here are a few of my squabbles with Christianity (at least the version of it that I was raised in) -You don't have to convert other people to be a Christian. We don't spend every waking moment trying to convert people. It's not the main goal. The main goal is to accept Jesus as your Savior, know he died on the cross to save you, rose on the third day, and confess your sins and ask for forgiveness. That's it, that's the main point of the Bible. It's a love letter from God to us basically asking us to trust in him. You don't have to be a super Christian or whatever they call it. That's nonsense if someone tells you that. This is really the first time in my life I have even tried to help lead other people. But it's something on my heart, that I WANTED to do. Why is it so hard to believe the world was created in 7 days? God can do anything. Is rising from the dead not enough to prove he could create the world in 7 days?
1. The concept of faith. Christianity teaches that faith is a virtue, and that we don't have to understand God in order to believe him. This sounds very innocent and nice at first, but what it really means in practice is that people are encouraged to believe something that has no supporting evidence. This, to me, is wrong. In order to truly learn and grow a person must ask questions. They must have doubts. By using this doctrine of "childlike faith" Christianity (and other religions) exempt themselves from any kind of logical debate. This is because if it were in fact subjected to logical debate it would fall apart in no time.
2. Conversion. In order to be a true Christian you must convert other people. It is not enough to be happy with your own beliefs... a true Christian will spend every waking hour trying to "spread the good news" to "lost souls". I find this attitude very condescending. In many cases it turns people into bigots.
3. The Bible. Many Christians believe that the Bible is 100% God's word. In order to believe this I would have to believe that...
a) the world was created in seven days
b) men are superior to women
c) people used to live to be nearly 1000 years old
d) the earth is only about 6000 years old
e) people coexisted with dinosaurs and fire breathing sea dragons (see the book of Job)
...and many other ridiculous things that any logical person would not believe.
- Oobleck42 - 08-26-2004 02:13 PM
bak2life Wrote:You speak as if Christ rising from the dead is an accepted fact when it isn't. I'm not even convinced that he actually existed so why would I believe he rose from the dead?Oobleck42 Wrote:Here are a few of my squabbles with Christianity (at least the version of it that I was raised in) -You don't have to convert other people to be a Christian. We don't spend every waking moment trying to convert people. It's not the main goal. The main goal is to accept Jesus as your Savior, know he died on the cross to save you, rose on the third day, and confess your sins and ask for forgiveness. That's it, that's the main point of the Bible. It's a love letter from God to us basically asking us to trust in him. You don't have to be a super Christian or whatever they call it. That's nonsense if someone tells you that. This is really the first time in my life I have even tried to help lead other people. But it's something on my heart, that I WANTED to do. Why is it so hard to believe the world was created in 7 days? God can do anything. Is rising from the dead not enough to prove he could create the world in 7 days?
1. The concept of faith. Christianity teaches that faith is a virtue, and that we don't have to understand God in order to believe him. This sounds very innocent and nice at first, but what it really means in practice is that people are encouraged to believe something that has no supporting evidence. This, to me, is wrong. In order to truly learn and grow a person must ask questions. They must have doubts. By using this doctrine of "childlike faith" Christianity (and other religions) exempt themselves from any kind of logical debate. This is because if it were in fact subjected to logical debate it would fall apart in no time.
2. Conversion. In order to be a true Christian you must convert other people. It is not enough to be happy with your own beliefs... a true Christian will spend every waking hour trying to "spread the good news" to "lost souls". I find this attitude very condescending. In many cases it turns people into bigots.
3. The Bible. Many Christians believe that the Bible is 100% God's word. In order to believe this I would have to believe that...
a) the world was created in seven days
b) men are superior to women
c) people used to live to be nearly 1000 years old
d) the earth is only about 6000 years old
e) people coexisted with dinosaurs and fire breathing sea dragons (see the book of Job)
...and many other ridiculous things that any logical person would not believe.
It's hard for me to believe that the world was created in seven days because all scientific evidence points out that life has evolved over a period of billions of years. This is not just an unprovable statement that I've chosen to believe, like the Bible's claim is. It's backed up by facts and research and we are learning more about it every day. And what about all of the other things I mentioned that were in the Bible? Surely if there are things in there that are OBVIOUSLY wrong, I can't trust the rest of it?
And I wasn't saying that ALL Christians spend ALL of their time trying to convert people. But you said yourself that you ENJOY telling people about Christ. Of course you do. You wouldn't be a true believer if you didn't, would you? If you honestly believe that you bear news that is a matter of life or death how can you do anything BUT try to convince people to see "the truth"?
- Space Cadet - 08-26-2004 02:23 PM
Religion on forums = unfriendly disputes.
:(
- aserty - 08-26-2004 02:30 PM
I don't believe in God, simply because it depresses me. But interestingly enough, most psychologists say religion is good for people becasue it generally provides a feeling of "well-being."
Also, studies show that marijuana and religion have similar mental affects on people.
Btw: Saying the Bible mentions God so he must exsist is also a dumb arguement, that's like saying the earth is flat because people 700 years ago wrote it down.
Edited By aserty on 1093559510
- wowser - 08-26-2004 02:31 PM
slygirl Wrote:Emerson Lake & Palmer, slygirl :laugh:Pink Prism Wrote:Lets stop this discussion. You really can't tell people to think different about religion and politics, the only thing that may happen is that you will be angry with each other.yea, perhaps you r right. i guess ill PM or IM oobleck and bak2life as suggested.
BTW.....what is a ELP sig?? what is ELP?? i saw wowser say it. dont know what that is.
#
I also share Oob's problem with Christianity being a religion in which the 'word must be spread' to save others. This belief has done enormous harm, such as in North America (introducing Native Americans to the religion "a religion where we can't have sex and have fun?" No thanks, thought the Natives! Also, it has done great harm in Africa - missionaries coming and leaving communities piously believing in what they were told, which in turn has helped the Aids crisis SPIRAL (not wanting to use contraception on religious grounds etc)
So.. ya... It can be quite a headache
Edited By wowser on 1093559591
- slygirl - 08-26-2004 02:35 PM
Emerson Lake & Palmer, slygirl :laugh:
#
I also share Oob's problem with Christianity being a religion in which the 'word must be spread' to save others. This belief has done enormous harm, such as in North America (introducing Native Americans to the religion "a religion where we can't have sex and have fun?" No thanks, thought the Natives! Also, it has done great harm in Africa - missionaries coming and leaving communities piously believing in what they were told, which in turn has helped the Aids crisis SPIRAL (not wanting to use contraception on religious grounds etc)
So.. ya... It can be quite a headache[/quote]
:laugh: :laugh:
if i wasnt so tired i mightve been able to figure that out.
Edited By slygirl on 1093559820
- Steve Hill - 08-26-2004 03:16 PM
Oobleck42 Wrote:I believe there was a "Jesus" character around at the time as too many texts from different places refer to this person, when they have nothing to gain from writing this down. However, I believe that he was merely a preacher with a good knowledge of science. There have been many athiest scientists over the years trying to explain all the "miracles" and the vast majority have been done sucessfully.bak2life Wrote:You speak as if Christ rising from the dead is an accepted fact when it isn't. I'm not even convinced that he actually existed so why would I believe he rose from the dead?Oobleck42 Wrote:Here are a few of my squabbles with Christianity (at least the version of it that I was raised in) -You don't have to convert other people to be a Christian. We don't spend every waking moment trying to convert people. It's not the main goal. The main goal is to accept Jesus as your Savior, know he died on the cross to save you, rose on the third day, and confess your sins and ask for forgiveness. That's it, that's the main point of the Bible. It's a love letter from God to us basically asking us to trust in him. You don't have to be a super Christian or whatever they call it. That's nonsense if someone tells you that. This is really the first time in my life I have even tried to help lead other people. But it's something on my heart, that I WANTED to do. Why is it so hard to believe the world was created in 7 days? God can do anything. Is rising from the dead not enough to prove he could create the world in 7 days?
1. The concept of faith. Christianity teaches that faith is a virtue, and that we don't have to understand God in order to believe him. This sounds very innocent and nice at first, but what it really means in practice is that people are encouraged to believe something that has no supporting evidence. This, to me, is wrong. In order to truly learn and grow a person must ask questions. They must have doubts. By using this doctrine of "childlike faith" Christianity (and other religions) exempt themselves from any kind of logical debate. This is because if it were in fact subjected to logical debate it would fall apart in no time.
2. Conversion. In order to be a true Christian you must convert other people. It is not enough to be happy with your own beliefs... a true Christian will spend every waking hour trying to "spread the good news" to "lost souls". I find this attitude very condescending. In many cases it turns people into bigots.
3. The Bible. Many Christians believe that the Bible is 100% God's word. In order to believe this I would have to believe that...
a) the world was created in seven days
b) men are superior to women
c) people used to live to be nearly 1000 years old
d) the earth is only about 6000 years old
e) people coexisted with dinosaurs and fire breathing sea dragons (see the book of Job)
...and many other ridiculous things that any logical person would not believe.
It's hard for me to believe that the world was created in seven days because all scientific evidence points out that life has evolved over a period of billions of years. This is not just an unprovable statement that I've chosen to believe, like the Bible's claim is. It's backed up by facts and research and we are learning more about it every day. And what about all of the other things I mentioned that were in the Bible? Surely if there are things in there that are OBVIOUSLY wrong, I can't trust the rest of it?
And I wasn't saying that ALL Christians spend ALL of their time trying to convert people. But you said yourself that you ENJOY telling people about Christ. Of course you do. You wouldn't be a true believer if you didn't, would you? If you honestly believe that you bear news that is a matter of life or death how can you do anything BUT try to convince people to see "the truth"?
e.g. The Burning Bush - In the middle east, there is a certain type of Bush that produces methane gas in reasonably large amounts. By throwing one stone onto another next to the bush, a spark is created igniting it.
The parting of the red sea - the red sea is at a certain level every year where it is possible to walk across, before it rises suddenly. We are led to believe that the Egyptians followed the Isrealites near instantly and were drowned, but we know that the bible is prone to exaggeration as stated above. If Moses was nearby for all those years, isn't it possible that he worked out the timings and made sure they got across safely and just before the tides rose again?
And as for the ten commandments, good as they are for a decent moral foundation so don't have a go at me for criticising them, but are you telling me that Moses disappears every day to pray alone and then after some time a storm comes and these tablets appear out of nowhere? He was merely assuring his authority over his followers.
But this is my interpretation of events and I respect others have differing views, but please don't tell me I am wrong because an innacurate book tells you so.
- wowser - 08-26-2004 04:08 PM
wowser Wrote:just making sure i dont get ignored with things being on a new pageslygirl Wrote:Emerson Lake & Palmer, slygirl :laugh:Pink Prism Wrote:Lets stop this discussion. You really can't tell people to think different about religion and politics, the only thing that may happen is that you will be angry with each other.yea, perhaps you r right. i guess ill PM or IM oobleck and bak2life as suggested.
BTW.....what is a ELP sig?? what is ELP?? i saw wowser say it. dont know what that is.
#
I also share Oob's problem with Christianity being a religion in which the 'word must be spread' to save others. This belief has done enormous harm, such as in North America (introducing Native Americans to the religion "a religion where we can't have sex and have fun?" No thanks, thought the Natives! Also, it has done great harm in Africa - missionaries coming and leaving communities piously believing in what they were told, which in turn has helped the Aids crisis SPIRAL (not wanting to use contraception on religious grounds etc)
So.. ya... It can be quite a headache
- Pink Prism - 08-26-2004 09:42 PM
slygirl Wrote::laugh: :laugh:wowser Wrote:Emerson Lake & Palmer, slygirl :laugh:
#
I also share Oob's problem with Christianity being a religion in which the 'word must be spread' to save others. This belief has done enormous harm, such as in North America (introducing Native Americans to the religion "a religion where we can't have sex and have fun?" No thanks, thought the Natives! Also, it has done great harm in Africa - missionaries coming and leaving communities piously believing in what they were told, which in turn has helped the Aids crisis SPIRAL (not wanting to use contraception on religious grounds etc)
So.. ya... It can be quite a headache
if i wasnt so tired i mightve been able to figure that out.[/quote]
:D yea, Emerson, Lake and Palmer. They are the best. Very good at least
Keith Emerson is the biggest genius ever on the keyboard.Edited By Pink Prism on 1093585371
- Rogacz - 08-27-2004 01:23 AM
Just don`t forget that a man who belives in god not always shines, and atheist isn`t asshole from begining, just because he sais 'no god'.
There are a lot old people in my country who after hearing a man who says 'i don`t believe in god' shouts 'heretic' or 'satan' or whatever and close the door with big bang.
That`s weird, cause the same person, who closed the door could do big businnes, get any kind of help from this 'atheist' not even knowing, he doasn`t pray, and when he says 'my actions is god', a lot of people turns around from him.
This hurts.
- Pink Prism - 08-27-2004 10:28 AM
people are just so damn afraid of dying, i guess. "Don't take the risk, because eventually you will face god at the end, and then you will be judged".
Geez...
- Rogacz - 08-27-2004 12:21 PM
Pink Prism Wrote:people are just so damn afraid of dying, i guess. "Don't take the risk, because eventually you will face god at the end, and then you will be judged".That`s truth too.
Geez...
- FishBowlWYWH - 08-27-2004 12:22 PM
i think some people just have to learn not every person who doesnt believe in god has had something bad happen in their life or are bad people.
i was talking this guy one time and asked him if he believes in god. he told me, "You know, i never thought about it". so some people never really thought about religon, and may be able do without it
- bak2life - 08-27-2004 01:13 PM
All right, let's put it in perspective. Right now most of you are living for nothing. I mean, you all think that when we die... we just go in the ground. Is that it? Is that what life is all about? Think about it. You die, and it's over. Your body goes in the ground and it just lays there for the rest of Earth's time. That's it.. right? And let's say you're right. What's the best thing that can happen to you when you die. Yeah that's right, you die and your body goes in the ground. What if people who believe in Jesus are right? What's the best thing that can happen to us? We go to Heaven and we spend all of eternity with family, friends, and everyone else who believes. Best of all we are with God. That's IF we are right. The worst thing that would happen to Believers if we are wrong is.. go into the ground. The worst thing that can happen to non-believers is they realize, when they die, they made the wrong decision. And there soul starts going down, and they feel fear, and know it's too late. And God can't save you then, it's too late. You are forever separated from YOUR creator.
I am not trying to be mean or ugly, I just telling you how it is. I don't care if I'm mocked or whatever because I expect it. It says in the Bible that we (Believers) will be mocked by those who don't believe. I know how much it is to swallow, and how it doesn't make sense to you. But, once you believe, you will just know deep down in your heart that it all makes sense. You might die in 50 years, or 10 years, 2 months, next week, tomorrow, or even today. Don't you want something to live for, instead of it being all about yourself. Don't you want to be safe just in case.
Like I said we Believers could be wrong. That's fine. But what if your wrong. What if you have to spend all of eternity being tortured, and being away from God. And your soul (which can't die) is feeling pain, and fear. You will still have feeling (I believe) if you are not in Heaven. Satan will torture forever. I wouldn't risk this happening, but it's your choice. God won't even this choice, it's all you.
Edited By bak2life on 1093641213
- wowser - 08-27-2004 01:17 PM
Moving more towards a religious perspective...
The Kingdom of God is here on earth, Bak2Life! We have to appreciate this while we are still alive.
Actually, you keep thinking that everything has a purpose, but then what is the purpose of going to heaven? is it not as pointl;ess as our lives on earth?
- bak2life - 08-27-2004 01:42 PM
wowser Wrote:Moving more towards a religious perspective...The purpose of going to Heaven is to be with you God. To be with the one that died for us. We should have been up on the cross, not him. He did nothing wrong. If he didn't do that, we would all die and go to Hell. No questions asked. But he did die and now gives us the option to have everlasting life with him in Heaven. Right now we are away from him. I want to be looking him in the face, when it's my time.
The Kingdom of God is here on earth, Bak2Life! We have to appreciate this while we are still alive.
Actually, you keep thinking that everything has a purpose, but then what is the purpose of going to heaven? is it not as pointl;ess as our lives on earth?
And sure your right, we should appreciate things on Earth. We are supposed to be thankful for what God has given us. But that isn't the main thing. Think how long eternity is. It's a heck of a lot longer a normal lifespan of 70 years or so. Life on Earth is nothing(time-wise) compared to eternity.
Life on Earth isn't pointless. This is the beginning, the beginning of eternity, not the end. This where you first learn about God, and start trusting him. Even though nothing makes sense, and he hasn't created the world in front of you, or built this or that, you still believe against all odds.
And FishbowlWYWH made a good point. Saying it's not only the people who are bad or have had something bad happen to them that are the only non-believers. However, that's usually what it takes for a non-believer to start believing because they actually start trusting God, and better things start happening for them. Or they just feel better.
- Oobleck42 - 08-27-2004 01:44 PM
bak2life Wrote:All right, let's put it in perspective. Right now most of you are living for nothing. I mean, you all think that when we die... we just go in the ground. Is that it? Is that what life is all about? Think about it. You die, and it's over. Your body goes in the ground and it just lays there for the rest of Earth's time. That's it.. right?Maybe, maybe not. The point is we don't know. You are offering one version of the truth - Christianity. That's what you, for one reason or another, have decided to adapt as your faith. Have you ever asked yourself why you believe what you believe, though? Is it something you've worked out on your own by studying your Bible and history, and people? Or is it something that you've just automatically accepted as being the truth because you were brought up to believe it?
- Pink Prism - 08-27-2004 01:47 PM
And what if Christianity ain't the right religion? I mean why would it be? Why wouldn't hinduism, islam and so on be the right religion? Would "god" punish them for being borned in the wrong place and grow up with wrong religion? Maybe he would then punish you for believing in christianity.
What i mean is, you seems to be very afraid of dying. You don't want to take the risk of insulting god and then go to hell. But what if you are praying for the wrong god, in the wrong way...
So maybe you will join me in hell anyway, bak2life :laugh:
Edited By Pink Prism on 1093643693
- Oobleck42 - 08-27-2004 01:52 PM
bak2life Wrote:What if people who believe in Jesus are right? What's the best thing that can happen to us? We go to Heaven and we spend all of eternity with family, friends, and everyone else who believes. Best of all we are with God. That's IF we are right. The worst thing that would happen to Believers if we are wrong is.. go into the ground. The worst thing that can happen to non-believers is they realize, when they die, they made the wrong decision. And there soul starts going down, and they feel fear, and know it's too late. And God can't save you then, it's too late. You are forever separated from YOUR creator.I've heard this very arguement, word for word almost, from a lot of differrent Christians. The pastor at the church I went to used to use it. I'm guessing you probably heard it at church too. The problem with that argument is that it does this -
What if I were to tell you that I believed that the world was going to be inhaled be a giant space gorilla, and that the only way to be saved from it is to go shirtless and paint a star on your belly. Then when the Star Fairy comes he will save those that have stars on their bellies. Now, you can choose not to believe this and when the Star Fairy comes you'll be left behind. But that's your choice. I'm just telling it like it is.
- Rogacz - 08-27-2004 02:11 PM
If God exists
And
If God is so fantastic as bible says
Then
All people who don`t believe in god, but live as He wants won`t be denunciationed
What about those people who go to church every day, pray, and then come back home drunk, slay their wifes, shout at kids, do all miserable things and so on...
Will they go to heaven just because they believe?
Next thing:
Military. There are two sides, sometimes both pray to same god, and... they die.
Edited By Rogacz on 1093644778
- no pussyfooting - 08-27-2004 02:20 PM
errr... Muslims, Jews, Christians have the same god, its only different prophets.
and if someone thinks he/she can convert member of this board to believe in somekind of "right" truth can just forget it.
Other opinions mocking just leads to bigotry and arrogant attidute.
altough ELP mocking is alright because they are the worst band in the history of mankind. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Edited By no pussyfooting on 1093645371
- Pink Prism - 08-27-2004 02:25 PM
no pussyfooting Wrote:altough ELP mocking is alright because they are the worst band in the history of mankind. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:....
"ok"
- bak2life - 08-27-2004 02:25 PM
Oobleck42 Wrote:For Oobleck... It's not something I just automatically accepted. Sure I was brought in Christianity, but that doesn't mean anything. You have to really accept it. Not just think "My families Christian, so I am." It doesn't work like that. I have been going to church for a long time, and up until about 2 years ago, I wasn't even paying attention. I mean being a kid, you just go up to church because you feel like you have to. You run through the motions every Sunday. I really started changing a couple of years ago. No it's not that I have studied about history or people or anything like that. Just because I don't read the Bible every night, doesn't mean I am not going to heaven. God doesn't say you have to read The Bible to get into Heaven. God can't speak to you out loud, he can only talk through your heart. And you'll know when he is talking to you because you can feel it. One other way God can talk to you is the Bible. It is His Word. So many things in there can strike your heart, you would be surprised. There are so many messages in the Bible that deal with our lives, and it's funny how right at the time you are reading, your thinking "this just happened to me."bak2life Wrote:All right, let's put it in perspective. Right now most of you are living for nothing. I mean, you all think that when we die... we just go in the ground. Is that it? Is that what life is all about? Think about it. You die, and it's over. Your body goes in the ground and it just lays there for the rest of Earth's time. That's it.. right?Maybe, maybe not. The point is we don't know. You are offering one version of the truth - Christianity. That's what you, for one reason or another, have decided to adapt as your faith. Have you ever asked yourself why you believe what you believe, though? Is it something you've worked out on your own by studying your Bible and history, and people? Or is it something that you've just automatically accepted as being the truth because you were brought up to believe it?
For Pink Prism... It's not all about Religion. It's about believing in Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, not anyone else. Not putting anybody else higher than him. Hinduism and those other religions aren't right because they believe in different people higher than Jesus. Most of them do actually believe in Jesus. However, they worship people like Muhammad. They put him on a higher scale than Jesus. That's where they're wrong. God doesn't say, "Okay, you were brought up wrong, so you get to go to Heaven." He just doesn't say that. It doesn't say in the Bible,"If you were brought up wrong, you get to go to Heaven." "It does say, Whoever believes in him (Jesus) shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
Edited By bak2life on 1093645617
- wowser - 08-27-2004 02:34 PM
bak2life Wrote:Hinduism and those other religions aren't right because they believe in different people higher than Jesus.So they are going to hell? why are you right and they are wrong? Would you want to convert them all to Christianity?
Why is nobody saying anything about what i said about missionaries??????????????
- Oobleck42 - 08-27-2004 02:37 PM
bak2life Wrote:For Oobleck... It's not something I just automatically accepted. Sure I was brought in Christianity, but that doesn't mean anything. You have to really accept it. Not just think "My families Christian, so I am." It doesn't work like that. I have been going to church for a long time, and up until about 2 years ago, I wasn't even paying attention. I mean being a kid, you just go up to church because you feel like you have to. You run through the motions every Sunday. I really started changing a couple of years ago. No it's not that I have studied about history or people or anything like that. Just because I don't read the Bible every night, doesn't mean I am not going to heaven. God doesn't say you have to read The Bible to get into Heaven. God can't speak to you out loud, he can only talk through your heart. And you'll know when he is talking to you because you can feel it. One other way God can talk to you is the Bible. It is His Word. So many things in there can strike your heart, you would be surprised. There are so many messages in the Bible that deal with our lives, and it's funny how right at the time you are reading, your thinking "this just happened to me."Maybe you can explain this chapter to me then because nobody seems to be able to.
15:1 Samuel also said to Saul, the LORD sent me to anoint thee [to be] king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou to the voice of the words of the LORD.
15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember [that] which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid [wait] for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
15:4 And Saul assembled the people, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
15:5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.
15:6 And Saul said to the Kenites, Go, depart, withdraw yourselves from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye showed kindness to all the children of Israel when they came up from Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
15:7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah, [until] thou comest to Shur, that [is] over against Egypt.
15:8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
EDIT - That's First Samuel, Chapter 15
Edited By Oobleck42 on 1093646265
- Oobleck42 - 08-27-2004 02:38 PM
wowser Wrote:It was a very good point, Wowser. I just didn't have anything to add to it :)bak2life Wrote:Hinduism and those other religions aren't right because they believe in different people higher than Jesus.So they are going to hell? why are you right and they are wrong? Would you want to convert them all to Christianity?
Why is nobody saying anything about what i said about missionaries??????????????
- bak2life - 08-27-2004 02:47 PM
Oobleck42 Wrote:15:1 Samuel also said to Saul, the LORD sent me to anoint thee [to be] king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou to the voice of the words of the LORD.That's all basically about God rejecting Saul as King. Saul was rejected because he did not obey. Anyone who leads God's people must be sure to obey God always. Did you get that?
15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember [that] which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid [wait] for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
15:4 And Saul assembled the people, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
15:5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.
15:6 And Saul said to the Kenites, Go, depart, withdraw yourselves from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye showed kindness to all the children of Israel when they came up from Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
15:7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah, [until] thou comest to Shur, that [is] over against Egypt.
15:8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
EDIT - That's First Samuel, Chapter 15
I think you took what I said a little to far Oobleck. Like I said some things will jump out at you, and some things won't. The Old Testament is a very hard part of the Bible to read because it really is very boring. And with nothing to help explain it, it's even worse. The New Testament is a lot better. It relates better for us because it talks more of the future towards the end. Especially if you are starting out. I would start out in Luke.
For Wowser... it's not we are right and they are wrong. It's God is right and they are wrong. And like you said, that is the point of missionaries... to go to other places where people don't believe in Jesus, and help lead them towards him. Keep in mind I didn't say lead to them to Christianity, I said lead to Jesus.
Edited By bak2life on 1093647114
- wowser - 08-27-2004 03:02 PM
I must say, i think the bible is a great book - i enjoyed studying it at school.
I have aquired a Hare Krishna bible recently, so i'm gonna check it out and tell ya how it goes. It is beautifully illustrated
- Oobleck42 - 08-27-2004 03:02 PM
bak2life Wrote:That's all basically about God rejecting Saul as King. Saul was rejected because he did not obey. Anyone who leads God's people must be sure to obey God always. Did you get that?Yeah, I got that bit. Did you get that bit about GOD ORDERING SAUL TO KILL ALL OF THE MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN?
- bak2life - 08-27-2004 03:53 PM
Oobleck42 Wrote:Yeah the only thing I can say about that is whatever God tells you to do, you do it. :;):bak2life Wrote:That's all basically about God rejecting Saul as King. Saul was rejected because he did not obey. Anyone who leads God's people must be sure to obey God always. Did you get that?Yeah, I got that bit. Did you get that bit about GOD ORDERING SAUL TO KILL ALL OF THE MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN?
- wowser - 08-27-2004 03:56 PM
quite a scary thought
- bak2life - 08-27-2004 04:05 PM
wowser Wrote:quite a scary thoughtIt is, but everything is done for a reason. It's his plan, not ours.
- wowser - 08-27-2004 04:06 PM
I'm not so sure i'm a fan of this plan. I doubt that is his plan anyway, it can only be an interpretation of what his plan is.
"I don't see any method... at all"
- Oobleck42 - 08-27-2004 04:50 PM
bak2life Wrote:I'm sure Charles Manson would agree with you but not me.Oobleck42 Wrote:Yeah the only thing I can say about that is whatever God tells you to do, you do it. :;):bak2life Wrote:That's all basically about God rejecting Saul as King. Saul was rejected because he did not obey. Anyone who leads God's people must be sure to obey God always. Did you get that?Yeah, I got that bit. Did you get that bit about GOD ORDERING SAUL TO KILL ALL OF THE MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN?
- slygirl - 08-28-2004 10:37 AM
Oobleck42 Wrote::laugh:bak2life Wrote:I'm sure Charles Manson would agree with you but not me.Oobleck42 Wrote:Yeah the only thing I can say about that is whatever God tells you to do, you do it. :;):bak2life Wrote:That's all basically about God rejecting Saul as King. Saul was rejected because he did not obey. Anyone who leads God's people must be sure to obey God always. Did you get that?Yeah, I got that bit. Did you get that bit about GOD ORDERING SAUL TO KILL ALL OF THE MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN?
i actually pride myself on not being a conformist and that is all that religion is...... ???
- wowser - 08-28-2004 10:48 AM
religion isn't especially abort conformity. it is about a communal existence; something that has been lost in out individualist, capitalist society
- slygirl - 08-28-2004 10:53 AM
no pussyfooting Wrote:errr... Muslims, Jews, Christians have the same god, its only different prophets.yes, you are completely correct about that. for instance, muslim leaders got confused by the expression "the father, the son, and the holy spirit" and came to the conclusion that "we" worshipped 3 different Gods after "we" said to only worship one. so now "we" are hypocrites and they call their "God" Allah. one name, one God (to them). they could not comprehend the expression i mentioned above. and frankly i have a hard time trying to figure out why it is stated that way, also. but i do comprehend that they mean the same "God".
BTW...i put WE in parenthesis not to indidcate us (non-muslims) with them (muslims) in a segragating way but because i honestly do not know if it was Cathoilcs, Christians, etc. that had this discussion with them about "God". so i just said we.
ya know....we = whoever had this discussion with them.
- wowser - 08-28-2004 10:59 AM
slygirl Wrote:'Allah' is not so much what they call God (not like calling him 'John' or 'Corneleous') , but is simply a translation of the word 'God' into Aramaic / Arabicno pussyfooting Wrote:errr... Muslims, Jews, Christians have the same god, its only different prophets.yes, you are completely correct about that. for instance, muslim leaders got confused by the expression "the father, the son, and the holy spirit" and came to the conclusion that "we" worshipped 3 different Gods after "we" said to only worship one. so now "we" are hypocrites and they call their "God" Allah. one name, one God (to them). they could not comprehend the expression i mentioned above. and frankly i have a hard time trying to figure out why it is stated that way, also. but i do comprehend that they mean the same "God".
BTW...i put WE in parenthesis not to indidcate us (non-muslims) with them (muslims) in a segragating way but because i honestly do not know if it was Cathoilcs, Christians, etc. that had this discussion with them about "God". so i just said we.
ya know....we = whoever had this discussion with them.
- slygirl - 08-28-2004 11:08 AM
wowser Wrote:quite a scary thoughtMAN, it certainly is...*shutters*
- slygirl - 08-28-2004 11:09 AM
wowser Wrote:aw, i see.........slygirl Wrote:'Allah' is not so much what they call God (not like calling him 'John' or 'Corneleous') , but is simply a translation of the word 'God' into Aramaic / Arabicno pussyfooting Wrote:errr... Muslims, Jews, Christians have the same god, its only different prophets.yes, you are completely correct about that. for instance, muslim leaders got confused by the expression "the father, the son, and the holy spirit" and came to the conclusion that "we" worshipped 3 different Gods after "we" said to only worship one. so now "we" are hypocrites and they call their "God" Allah. one name, one God (to them). they could not comprehend the expression i mentioned above. and frankly i have a hard time trying to figure out why it is stated that way, also. but i do comprehend that they mean the same "God".
BTW...i put WE in parenthesis not to indidcate us (non-muslims) with them (muslims) in a segragating way but because i honestly do not know if it was Cathoilcs, Christians, etc. that had this discussion with them about "God". so i just said we.
ya know....we = whoever had this discussion with them.
- slygirl - 08-28-2004 12:22 PM
wowser Wrote:religion isn't especially abort conformity. it is about a communal existence; something that has been lost in out individualist, capitalist societybeing a communal existance is what its suppose to be. but it isnt. if it was, that would be real nice.
it is comments like "do whatever God says" that freak me out, turn me off religion, and make me want to fiercely defend my choice to be a non-conformist to a religion.
Edited By slygirl on 1093724580
- wowser - 08-28-2004 12:53 PM
that was just one example. Anyway, i'm sayinmg that whilst it appears conformist (and i suppose it is) this is to enhance the communal experience and makew the sense of self become less aparrant.
- pfloyd1985 - 08-28-2004 01:16 PM
i find the little modified psalm in animals to be very amusing
The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want He makes me down to lie.
Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by.
With bright knives He releaseth my soul.
He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places.
He converteth me to lamb cutlets.
For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger.
When cometh the day we lowly ones,
trough quiet reflection and great dedication,
master the art of karate,
lo, we shall rise up,
and then we'll make the buggers eyes water.
- One Of The Few - 08-29-2004 08:55 PM
Oobleck42 Wrote:God was very vengeful in the OT, (EX: "The plagues on Egypt", "Moses's impatience with the stone", "Adam and Eve", etc) he did that becuase people of Amalek were assholes and wouldn't except the ways of the lord and they wouldn't let the people from Israel join them in their village, they wanted nothing to do with God, he spared the Kenites, because they were good people, the women and children would live in tragedy if their husbands and fathers were killed, back then you weren't allowed to remarry, so if they were killed off, i'm sure they would join God in heaven, along with the men who wanted to be there area if they wanted to be there.bak2life Wrote:For Oobleck... It's not something I just automatically accepted. Sure I was brought in Christianity, but that doesn't mean anything. You have to really accept it. Not just think "My families Christian, so I am." It doesn't work like that. I have been going to church for a long time, and up until about 2 years ago, I wasn't even paying attention. I mean being a kid, you just go up to church because you feel like you have to. You run through the motions every Sunday. I really started changing a couple of years ago. No it's not that I have studied about history or people or anything like that. Just because I don't read the Bible every night, doesn't mean I am not going to heaven. God doesn't say you have to read The Bible to get into Heaven. God can't speak to you out loud, he can only talk through your heart. And you'll know when he is talking to you because you can feel it. One other way God can talk to you is the Bible. It is His Word. So many things in there can strike your heart, you would be surprised. There are so many messages in the Bible that deal with our lives, and it's funny how right at the time you are reading, your thinking "this just happened to me."Maybe you can explain this chapter to me then because nobody seems to be able to.
15:1 Samuel also said to Saul, the LORD sent me to anoint thee [to be] king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou to the voice of the words of the LORD.
15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember [that] which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid [wait] for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
15:4 And Saul assembled the people, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
15:5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.
15:6 And Saul said to the Kenites, Go, depart, withdraw yourselves from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye showed kindness to all the children of Israel when they came up from Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
15:7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah, [until] thou comest to Shur, that [is] over against Egypt.
15:8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
EDIT - That's First Samuel, Chapter 15
i beleive there is an afterlife, because how do explain ghost and spirits in haunted places and exorcisms, i have spirits in my house, my mom sees them in her room all the time, and shes not crazy either
and if there IS a heaven, this is what i think will happen:
you go to purgatory (it's between heaven and hell) and stay their until all of your sins are repented and if you accept to join God, you'll go to heaven, if you refuse to join him, you go to hell)
Christianity has been getting a bad name recently because of the corrupt priests and people of the faith, i don't go to church anymore because most of it is full of hypcritcal people. but their are still good people in the world (no matter what religion they beleive in), and to say they will go to hell because they're not christian is insane
- Oobleck42 - 08-30-2004 09:33 AM
One Of The Few Wrote:God was very vengeful in the OT, (EX: "The plagues on Egypt", "Moses's impatience with the stone", "Adam and Eve", etc) he did that becuase people of Amalek were assholes and wouldn't except the ways of the lord and they wouldn't let the people from Israel join them in their village, they wanted nothing to do with God, he spared the Kenites, because they were good people, the women and children would live in tragedy if their husbands and fathers were killed, back then you weren't allowed to remarry, so if they were killed off, i'm sure they would join God in heaven, along with the men who wanted to be there area if they wanted to be there.Why were they assholes for not accepting Israel's God? Maybe they didn't want to accept such a cruel and merciless God.
- Space Cadet - 09-02-2004 11:29 AM
Oobleck42 Wrote::unclesam:One Of The Few Wrote:God was very vengeful in the OT, (EX: "The plagues on Egypt", "Moses's impatience with the stone", "Adam and Eve", etc) he did that becuase people of Amalek were assholes and wouldn't except the ways of the lord and they wouldn't let the people from Israel join them in their village, they wanted nothing to do with God, he spared the Kenites, because they were good people, the women and children would live in tragedy if their husbands and fathers were killed, back then you weren't allowed to remarry, so if they were killed off, i'm sure they would join God in heaven, along with the men who wanted to be there area if they wanted to be there.Why were they assholes for not accepting Israel's God? Maybe they didn't want to accept such a cruel and merciless God.
- One Of The Few - 09-04-2004 09:00 PM
Oobleck42 Wrote:i don't know, that cliche statement of "God works in mysterious ways" comes in on this situation. yes at times he has been merciless, but that is outweighed of all the good he has doneOne Of The Few Wrote:God was very vengeful in the OT, (EX: "The plagues on Egypt", "Moses's impatience with the stone", "Adam and Eve", etc) he did that becuase people of Amalek were assholes and wouldn't except the ways of the lord and they wouldn't let the people from Israel join them in their village, they wanted nothing to do with God, he spared the Kenites, because they were good people, the women and children would live in tragedy if their husbands and fathers were killed, back then you weren't allowed to remarry, so if they were killed off, i'm sure they would join God in heaven, along with the men who wanted to be there area if they wanted to be there.Why were they assholes for not accepting Israel's God? Maybe they didn't want to accept such a cruel and merciless God.
- no pussyfooting - 09-05-2004 01:13 AM
I think you are all forgetting what What god wants is about. People using religion as a tool and changing messages for their own purpose. for example Koran tells to love Christians like brothers and sisters... Religion has had a cultural effect and we cannot forget good things that it has done. lot of historical writings wouldnt be here if monks would have not saved them. Were history would be unknown.
Edited By no pussyfooting on 1094375681
- Steve Hill - 09-05-2004 06:15 AM
bak2life Wrote:All right, let's put it in perspective. Right now most of you are living for nothing. I mean, you all think that when we die... we just go in the ground. Is that it? Is that what life is all about? Think about it. You die, and it's over. Your body goes in the ground and it just lays there for the rest of Earth's time. That's it.. right? And let's say you're right. What's the best thing that can happen to you when you die. Yeah that's right, you die and your body goes in the ground. What if people who believe in Jesus are right? What's the best thing that can happen to us? We go to Heaven and we spend all of eternity with family, friends, and everyone else who believes. Best of all we are with God. That's IF we are right. The worst thing that would happen to Believers if we are wrong is.. go into the ground. The worst thing that can happen to non-believers is they realize, when they die, they made the wrong decision. And there soul starts going down, and they feel fear, and know it's too late. And God can't save you then, it's too late. You are forever separated from YOUR creator.So what you are saying, (and I know you're not, just using this to make a point), that those who continuously break the 10 commandments stand a better chance of getting into heaven than athiests, because they belive in God? If I was wrong and I did die and found out that God did exist, if I had lived my life fair and morally just, surely I would stand as much chance of getting through the pearly gates as someone who lived their life pretty much the same as I, just belived in God? What you said pretty much condemned all athiests to a form of Hell on judgement just through their beliefs.
I am not trying to be mean or ugly, I just telling you how it is. I don't care if I'm mocked or whatever because I expect it. It says in the Bible that we (Believers) will be mocked by those who don't believe. I know how much it is to swallow, and how it doesn't make sense to you. But, once you believe, you will just know deep down in your heart that it all makes sense. You might die in 50 years, or 10 years, 2 months, next week, tomorrow, or even today. Don't you want something to live for, instead of it being all about yourself. Don't you want to be safe just in case.
Like I said we Believers could be wrong. That's fine. But what if your wrong. What if you have to spend all of eternity being tortured, and being away from God. And your soul (which can't die) is feeling pain, and fear. You will still have feeling (I believe) if you are not in Heaven. Satan will torture forever. I wouldn't risk this happening, but it's your choice. God won't even this choice, it's all you.
A last thought that my Father once asked our priest. If Heaven is above us and hell is below and purgatory is in between, aren't we spending our lives in purgatory?
- bak2life - 09-13-2004 11:41 AM
Steve Hill Wrote:So what you are saying, (and I know you're not, just using this to make a point), that those who continuously break the 10 commandments stand a better chance of getting into heaven than athiests, because they belive in God? If I was wrong and I did die and found out that God did exist, if I had lived my life fair and morally just, surely I would stand as much chance of getting through the pearly gates as someone who lived their life pretty much the same as I, just belived in God? What you said pretty much condemned all athiests to a form of Hell on judgement just through their beliefs.For your first part, that's exactly what I'm saying. Because it says in the Bible that after you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.. which is (knowing he died to save you, confessing your sins, asking him to come inside your heart).. it doesn't matter what you do because your are saved. All of break all sorts of rules everyday. He got nailed to a cross to save us from going to Hell, He knows we're not perfect(He created us.) Just because a mess up doesn't mean he says "oh I'm done with you, cause you broke the 10 commandments." He is a God of love and forgiveness. There's only one way to get into heaven, and that's through God. You could be the nicest person in the world, and not go to heaven. The only reason for it would be because you don't believe in God. So many people think that just because they are a good person, they are going to Heaven. But, it's not about good works. And if your an atheist, you don't believe in God, or you haven't accepted him, so how can you go to heaven. You are either on His team or against him, there is no in between.
A last thought that my Father once asked our priest. If Heaven is above us and hell is below and purgatory is in between, aren't we spending our lives in purgatory?
- EchoesseohcE - 09-15-2004 06:24 PM
I have a question for you Bak2life, what happens to the ant you step on on your way to the bus stop or that annoying fly you kill on your wall? where do they go? and what makes you and different from that fly? just because you have the brain capacity to comprehend a possible afterlife, does not mean there is one. you seem to know a lot about where everyone goes when they die, which is very convienent i think.
- bak2life - 09-16-2004 02:42 PM
EchoesseohcE Wrote:I have a question for you Bak2life, what happens to the ant you step on on your way to the bus stop or that annoying fly you kill on your wall? where do they go? and what makes you and different from that fly? just because you have the brain capacity to comprehend a possible afterlife, does not mean there is one. you seem to know a lot about where everyone goes when they die, which is very convienent i think.It doesn't say in the Bible what happens to animals when they die. God was a man, just like you and me. He wasn't an ant or any of the those other things you mentioned. We were made in his image. We must be pretty important. I am not saying we're better than animals, but they weren't crafted in God's image. It says in the Bible we sinned, and we had to be forgiven. God had to die to pay the penalty for People, not animals. We are to be his servants in Heaven, not animals. I am not here to force a belief on anyone or whatever. You believe what you want to believe, it's your choice. God didn't make you a robot that had to do somethig they didn't want to do. Which is why it's your choice. People here are asking questions, and I try to give them an answer. I am just telling (what I believe) is the greatest news you can hear. I mean, wouldn't you want to have hope that there is a Heaven. Do you want it be we just die and go into the ground. It gives you something to live for. You and I both know we will die some day. Why not do it just in case there really is a God? If you don't want to hear about any of this, then don't read it. Somebody might want to learn how to have everlastng life, and live forever... and when they are ready to talk about it, I'll be here.
- wowser - 09-16-2004 03:05 PM
I don't think anybody is going to change the opinions of anyone, religion-wise on a PF forum
- Steve Hill - 09-16-2004 03:35 PM
No, but some may be reading this and currently having a crisi of faith that could potentially be restored or alternatively they could decide that some here have argued well enough against there being a higher power. We are really all just posting here trying to catch the other side out so we can say, "You see, you can't explain that can you" and it then justifies in our heads the belief that we are right.
- slygirl - 09-16-2004 07:07 PM
this is my take on the bible......
it's your own business what you believe in or if you believe in anything at all. and besides... what proof do we have that there's "a higher power"? some old men who wrote a book a thousand years after these events allegedly happen? don't you think they got it wrong on the line of passing the stories along? (especially deciphering it from Hebrew). isn't it possible that we are in charge of our own fate?
oh and i'm not saying Mary was or was not a sexually active being but when she was pregnant with Jesus, say what...around 2000 years ago, the word "virgin" meant "young woman". it didnt necessarily mean non-sexually active.
but if u believe the story of how she got pregnant, thats cool and i am
NOT SAYING she has been sexually active prior to becoming pregnant with Jesus. so there is no need to go off on me and curse me into hell because i mean no disrespect to ms. mary or the bible!!!! i just used that as an example of how much the language and meanings differed so then and now. but NO DISRESPECT INTENDED, K?!?!
- bak2life - 09-17-2004 11:16 AM
slygirl Wrote:this is my take on the bible......You're right, we really don't have any proof. Jesus hasn't appeared to US, and walked on water, or raised the dead, etc. But that's why it's called faith. Just because you didn't see him create the earth doesn't mean he couldn't or didn't. If God came to Earth right now, and you saw him coming down on a cloud, then walking on top of the ocean to a cemetary, and raise the dead, you would probably believe in a heartbeat. You would have seen it with your own eyes. But it isn't that easy. Believing and trusting in God even though you haven't seen him with your eyes is true faith and loyalty.
it's your own business what you believe in or if you believe in anything at all. and besides... what proof do we have that there's "a higher power"?
Edited By bak2life on 1095448594
- Steve Hill - 09-17-2004 11:48 AM
bak2life Wrote:Just because you didn't see him create the earth doesn't mean he couldn't or didn't.I never rule out the possibility, but I don't think any higher power created the earth. So waht if I turn out to be wrong. All I know is that the bible has told people for hundreds of years the earth was made in a week, is flat and that it is only 10000 years old. When science proves all those wrong, suddenly the churches around the world try to work their way out of it by saying, "a week was a metaphorical way of putting it, obviously it took millions of years, but we demonstrated the slow process by putting it in a week".
Isn't it also convienient that the last ice age ended about 10000 years ago and from that modern man evolved? My theory, (not mine but the one I believe in), that man created religion for various social and mental reasons would fit in with this time frame. Man almost created the ice age ending as a starting point for the earth, subconciously at first, but over the years it became widespread belief that this were true.
- floydianyid - 09-17-2004 11:56 AM
bak2life Wrote:If God came to Earth right now, and you saw him coming down on a cloud, then walking on top of the ocean to a cemetary, and raise the dead, you would probably believe in a heartbeat.i would probably have a heart attack out of shock, but god seems to have put us in a catch 22 situation
- bak2life - 09-17-2004 12:09 PM
Steve Hill Wrote:I respect whatever it is you believe. It's not even God's choice in what you are to believe, it's yours. For me, it's not hard to believe that God created the Earth in only seven days because I believe he could do anything. He wasn't a mere man, he was God. I mean, if he could develope all of our organs and our circulatory system and lungs that breath in and out, and give us a brain to make our own descisions, why couldn't he make the earth in so little time. Think about how complicated our bodies are, science has no explanation for that. I don't think Science has a real explanation of how the Earth was created either. Some people think their was a Big Bang, and the Earth was suddenly made. That doesn't make sense at all, IMO.bak2life Wrote:Just because you didn't see him create the earth doesn't mean he couldn't or didn't.I never rule out the possibility, but I don't think any higher power created the earth. So waht if I turn out to be wrong. All I know is that the bible has told people for hundreds of years the earth was made in a week, is flat and that it is only 10000 years old. When science proves all those wrong, suddenly the churches around the world try to work their way out of it by saying, "a week was a metaphorical way of putting it, obviously it took millions of years, but we demonstrated the slow process by putting it in a week".
Isn't it also convienient that the last ice age ended about 10000 years ago and from that modern man evolved? My theory, (not mine but the one I believe in), that man created religion for various social and mental reasons would fit in with this time frame. Man almost created the ice age ending as a starting point for the earth, subconciously at first, but over the years it became widespread belief that this were true.
Edited By bak2life on 1095452009
- Steve Hill - 09-17-2004 04:23 PM
The big bang theory doesn't explain the creation of earth as such, but the beginnings of the universe, (science has now gone beyond that and many now believe that our universe is but one in a sea of universes. When a universe of matter and one of anti-matter came together, there was a big splat as they cancelled each other out then a bang as a new universe was created.) There is near solid scientific evidence suggesting that the earth has evolved over millions of years, (this bit is almost beyond doubt), that it was also part of a larger rock that came into our solar system and fragmented. If you then try to argue god made the basic earth and then it evolved, that falls apart too as the bible states he did it all in a week, almost up to todays standards. To say that god created it in a week is also hard to believe from the point of view that if he can do things perfectly in an instant, why did it take him so long?
I am an Engineer by degree qualification, a scientist by education levels before degree and I am looking to get into journalism. All of those rely on evidence and fact not speculation, (although journalism can be borderline at times). If you went into the dock in the courts and said god created the earth but provided little more evidence than a book with no true verification of author(s) and age, you would be laughed out of court. On the other hand, if you had to prove the big bang theory, (and remember, it is a theory that has not and will probably be never 100% proved), you could provide millions of pieces of evidence and since the courts work on the principle of "beyond reasonable doubt", it would be an open and shut case.
BTW, I do enjoy religious debate and the free thinking it creates. I hope this thread continues for a while yet.
- microbe - 09-18-2004 05:58 AM
bak2life Wrote:Yeah the only thing I can say about that is whatever God tells you to do, you do it. :;):or in other words
What God Wants, God Gets
another couple of quotes for you
Quote:The vilest offender that truly beleives, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives
and now to take this topic back to where it started
Quote:Muslem or Christian, Mullah or Pope, Preacher or poet, who was it wrote, give any one species too much rope and they'll f*** it up
Quote:You don't have to be a Jew, to disapprove of murder
Quote:and in banks across the world Christians Muslems Hindus Jews and people of every race creed colour tint or hue get down on their knees and pray
I take from all of these that Roger has a dim view of religion (Too Much Rope) and that all Religions have the same deity and indeed ultimate purpose (What God Wants). or something like that anyway -
:sleepy: g'nite -
- slygirl - 09-19-2004 10:51 AM
bak2life Wrote:K, i believe there is something/someone that created earth and ppl and all that. but what is IT called, that i am just not sure about. everyone has there own beliefs about that question.slygirl Wrote:this is my take on the bible......You're right, we really don't have any proof. Jesus hasn't appeared to US, and walked on water, or raised the dead, etc. But that's why it's called faith. Just because you didn't see him create the earth doesn't mean he couldn't or didn't. If God came to Earth right now, and you saw him coming down on a cloud, then walking on top of the ocean to a cemetary, and raise the dead, you would probably believe in a heartbeat. You would have seen it with your own eyes. But it isn't that easy. Believing and trusting in God even though you haven't seen him with your eyes is true faith and loyalty.
it's your own business what you believe in or if you believe in anything at all. and besides... what proof do we have that there's "a higher power"?
bak2life, i have a question for you. ok, well everyone says 'thank God" when something good happens and gives all their thanks and praise for the good to God. well how come the same people blame the devil (whom i do beieve in as the energy force EVIL) but if God gets praise for "helping" with good things, how is it not his fault when he does not prevent a tragedy?? see, i totally understand about free-will and all, but what i am saying is, if God has the power to heal and help then isnt He just as responsible for at least not helping prevent some of these bad things.
power to help no power to prevent. that seems like an oxymoron to me. i understand not every bad thing can be stopped, but man, we still need help down here.
i personally feel that my entire life has been nothing but physical and emotional suffering (and i DO take responsbility for the things i did to get into some f'ed up situations) but i sure did not do as many things to deserve medical probs resulting in pain physically and emotionally i have suffered from all my life. one or the other i could handle....but BOTH?? nope too hard. i realize i am all over the place here. but you get the drift of what i'm asking, right??
- bak2life - 09-20-2004 11:41 AM
slygirl Wrote:K, i believe there is something/someone that created earth and ppl and all that. but what is IT called, that i am just not sure about. everyone has there own beliefs about that question.Yeah you're absolutely right, we do need help down here. But, God isn't going to physically come down and stop all these bad things that happen. A lot of people do say "thank God." But, I think most of those people just use it as a normal expression. For example, you get out of doing something you didn't want to do, and you say "thank God." You know what I mean, it's not like you're on the floor, crying out to God with tears in your eyes. It's usually just an expression that you are happy to get out of whatever it was. When you pray, that's when you really mean what you say, and can get emotional. Hopefully that sort of makes sense.
bak2life, i have a question for you. ok, well everyone says 'thank God" when something good happens and gives all their thanks and praise for the good to God. well how come the same people blame the devil (whom i do beieve in as the energy force EVIL) but if God gets praise for "helping" with good things, how is it not his fault when he does not prevent a tragedy?? see, i totally understand about free-will and all, but what i am saying is, if God has the power to heal and help then isnt He just as responsible for at least not helping prevent some of these bad things.
power to help no power to prevent. that seems like an oxymoron to me. i understand not every bad thing can be stopped, but man, we still need help down here.
i personally feel that my entire life has been nothing but physical and emotional suffering (and i DO take responsbility for the things i did to get into some f'ed up situations) but i sure did not do as many things to deserve medical probs resulting in pain physically and emotionally i have suffered from all my life. one or the other i could handle....but BOTH?? nope too hard. i realize i am all over the place here. but you get the drift of what i'm asking, right??
I think most people blame God more than the devil. Especially when you lose a loved one, you start going against God and spiralling down into depression. On your comments on Him preventing stuff from happening, you have to realize it is his plan. If you are meant to get over a sickness, you will. God already knows when you and I will die. It's already been planned, we just have no idea. God can't come down physically and heal people anymore, so he really can't (again physically) prevent a death from happening these days. Most people just pray that person will get better. If they do, you praise God and be thankful. If they die, you still praise God and know that it was meant to be.
And a lot don't deserve what they get. You could be the nicest person in the world, but you get cancer or something. You could be an innocent baby born premature. What did they do to deserve this? Nothing, but it just happens. They were meant to be like that. Some people have it worse than others. Some are born blind or deaf. Imagine never being able to see yourself, or hear yourself. God made a great plan before the Earth was even made. He was thinking about you even before creating the Earth. He knows what's best for you and what you need. He doesn't make things happen, he just allows it. You're not a robot, you do what you want to do. If you want to be a serial killer, then you can be one. I know the plan, and most of life doesn't make sense, but it is said that whoever trusts in God has a place instore for them that is so great their minds can't even imagine how great it will be.
Edited By bak2life on 1095709714
- floydianyid - 09-20-2004 11:52 AM
see thats the thing that really bugs me, i'm not a religious person and i don't wanna pray or practice religion because i believe that religion has caused more problems that it has solved but back to what bugs me answer me this bak2life
when i die will i burn in hell for eternity even though i have been a good person but my only crime would be anti religion ?
if so this to me would seem a nasty thing to do and if God is capable of such acts it dosen't inspire me to ever be religious
Edited By floydianyid on 1095710058
- bak2life - 09-20-2004 12:17 PM
floydianyid Wrote:see thats the thing that really bugs me, i'm not a religious person and i don't wanna pray or practice religion because i believe that religion has caused more problems that it has solved but back to what bugs me answer me this bak2lifeLook, good works will not get you into Heaven. You can be the nicest person in the world, and still not get into Heaven. It's not about being a nice person, it's about putting all your trust and faith in something that no one can really explain. The truth is, people who have not put 100% of their life in God's hands are spiritually dead. You are living now, but after your body dies, your soul leaves your body. You will either be eternally separated from God, or be with him in Heaven. You have to have an intimite relationship with God. Not just anybody can get into Heaven. Heaven is the most pure place you can be. If God doesn't have that initimate relationship with you, he won't allow you into Heaven. You are either on God's side or against him, there is no in between. If you met someone on the street, you wouldn't just allow them to come in your house, would you? No you would want to get a chance to get to know them. Don't get mad at God. It is your descision here on Earth. You choose do live for yourself, or live for him. God will not be responsible for your soul when you die, if you did not trust in him here on Earth. How can you live your whole life for yourself, and then expect God to let you in Heaven when you just finally realized that you made the worst choice of your life. However, it's not to late for you or anyone else here on Earth who has yet to put the reigns in God's hands. You still have time, that why you shouldn't even worry about not going to Heaven. Put some trust in somebody else for once, and get the world off your back. Fully believe, and you will live forever.
when i die will i burn in hell for eternity even though i have been a good person but my only crime would be anti religion ?
if so this to me would seem a nasty thing to do and if God is capable of such acts it dosen't inspire me to ever be religious
- floydianyid - 09-20-2004 12:36 PM
I'm not mad at God but your saying i have to put my trust in someone i don't know, its the same as what you was saying about letting a complete stranger in your house when you don't even know them.
- wowser - 09-20-2004 12:56 PM
bak2life Wrote:The truth is, people who have not put 100% of their life in God's hands are spiritually dead.Would you count Muslims, Jews et al as being able to be committed to God?
- Steve Hill - 09-20-2004 02:50 PM
Well muslims and Jews believe in the same god as christians, only they believe in a different set of rules as set out by the almighty. Other religions believe in multiple gods and so are apparently worshipping the wrong god.
My question is if man started by worshipping multiple gods and most have "progressed" onto a single god, (and many of these ridicule the belief of multiple gods), surely the next step would be to believe in no gods. If I am right, man created religion in his mind and so there were gods for different parts of society, (sea, land, love etc.), he then moved onto a single being controlling everything and now more and more, (in the developed world especially), are banishing the thoughts of gods completely. Hence man has removed the need for religion he once had.
- aserty - 09-20-2004 02:58 PM
If having faith is about believing in something with little evidence or something you can't prove exists, why don't you religious people believe in unicorns or leprachauns or aliens?
- wowser - 09-20-2004 03:17 PM
aserty Wrote:If having faith is about believing in something with little evidence or something you can't prove exists, why don't you religious people believe in unicorns or leprachauns or aliens?that is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. People believe in a God as they, understandably believe that the very nature of our lives must be about something more spiritual than science. Goblins, unicorns etc are no more than imaginary animals, and clearly do not have the same spiritual quality that a God provides.
STeve - I think it is a sad that consumerism and surface pleasure has replaced spirituality.
Edited By wowser on 1095722394
- Steve Hill - 09-20-2004 03:33 PM
wowser Wrote:I think it is a sad that consumerism and surface pleasure has replaced spirituality.In many ways, I do too. I am of the opinion however that most of the problems in the world stem from religious conflict. That's one of the main reasons I don't believe in god anymore, well the reason is I thought long and hard about religion in general at about the age of 17, just after I had left my catholic secondary school where my faith had never come into question, and I realised that the more I thought about it, the more it seemed like nonsense. Since then I have become more cynical of religion in general, it is too often used as an excuse.
I also still believe one can have a form of spiritually without religion, almost like an inner peace with both you and the world around you, although now I believe we are merely governed by the laws of science, mathematics being the most base, followed by physics, chemistry and finally biology. We all need some form of spirituality, something to determine our morals and reasoning. We however cannot escape the rules of science, but everything can be eventually explained by it, (even all the so called miracles will be one day).
- aserty - 09-20-2004 03:36 PM
wowser Wrote:Oh, so it's spirtuality they're after. By defintion that's having qualities like a spirit, or being supernatural. So why don't you believe in ghosts? Or multiple Gods? Why only one God? If belief in one God fills your need for spirtuality, wouldn't two Gods do twice as good of job?aserty Wrote:If having faith is about believing in something with little evidence or something you can't prove exists, why don't you religious people believe in unicorns or leprachauns or aliens?that is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. People believe in a God as they, understandably believe that the very nature of our lives must be about something more spiritual than science. Goblins, unicorns etc are no more than imaginary animals, and clearly do not have the same spiritual quality that a God provides.
STeve - I think it is a sad that consumerism and surface pleasure has replaced spirituality.
- wowser - 09-20-2004 03:46 PM
You may joke, but i think you can understand my point without looking up alternative definitions of the word
- aserty - 09-20-2004 03:48 PM
wowser Wrote:You may joke, but i think you can understand my point without looking up alternative definitions of the wordI still don't understand why you don't believe in multiple god, it seems to me that would fulfill your needs better.
- wowser - 09-20-2004 03:56 PM
It's not like i believe that we should having different gods for 'fiffernt jobs' runn ing the place like a ******* government. Is that what you mean? I don't even believe that God is in our image, but is more like a spirit that made we have have in nature etc. Like an undefinable spirit (NOT meant in the ghostly sense)
- aserty - 09-20-2004 04:06 PM
wowser Wrote:It's not like i believe that we should having different gods for 'fiffernt jobs' runn ing the place like a ******* government. Is that what you mean? I don't even believe that God is in our image, but is more like a spirit that made we have have in nature etc. Like an undefinable spirit (NOT meant in the ghostly sense)I'm not asking if you believe in multiple gods or just one god, I'm asking you why you only believe in one god.
- wowser - 09-20-2004 04:13 PM
i just answered both questions.
- aserty - 09-20-2004 04:48 PM
Okay, then please show me where in your last post you said,"I don't believe in multiples gods because..." or something along those lines. Because I didn't see a single reason why in your post before last.
- wowser - 09-20-2004 04:53 PM
ok: i do not believe in multiple gods because i don't believe that God is a tanglble thing, and transcends earthly constraints like numbers etc. Believeing in diffeent gods would conflict with this idea, and the other idea i posted.
- floydianyid - 09-20-2004 04:55 PM
this has been one of those mad pfonline nights, muhahahahaha
i like it :)
- wowser - 09-20-2004 04:59 PM
me too!
- aserty - 09-20-2004 05:20 PM
wowser Wrote:ok: i do not believe in multiple gods because i don't believe that God is a tanglble thing, and transcends earthly constraints like numbers etc. Believeing in diffeent gods would conflict with this idea, and the other idea i posted.Okay, I'm glad we've got that cleared up.
- microbe - 09-22-2004 08:16 AM
bak2life Wrote:Look, good works will not get you into Heaven. You can be the nicest person in the world, and still not get into Heaven. It's not about being a nice person,Maybe not, but if you're a Jehovah's Witness there's only room for a select few (a few hundred thousand) - surely it's full by now. If you're a Jew, Christians burn. If you're a Muslim, Jews don't make it.
Bit of bad luck for those who by accident of birth are Hindu and never receive the good news that Jesus died for them.
And what of the children or those with not the intellect to truly beleive do they burn for their poor comprehension?
- Albatross - 09-29-2004 12:06 PM
I was baptized Catholic and lived much of my childhood as such. At about age 14 I spent every waking hour in search of "the correct religion" and unfortunately never found it. While in the military I spoke to chaplains and various religious figures (priests, ministers, lamas, etc.) and it lead me to my belief system today.
My theory of it all is that all religions are woven from the same fabric. The fundamentals are all the same. Be good, love your neighbor, respect, bad things are naughty. I also found that throughout history, all but a few have been used to force and influence people or events.
After I basically cast aside any affiliations with or ambitions of joining any sort of "religion", I found that I didn't have to follow a set of guidelines to live a good life. I didn't need to eat biscuits on Thursday or point a rug east and pray to be "saved". I have been through lots in my short lifetime, but I feel that I am "blessed" because I am a good person and great things have happened to me, even not being a Christian or anything resembling one.
You only get one life to live, and only one chance to make it worth it. If there is a time where you face your maker, wouldn't you rather that you show him/her/it how you have lived the life they gave you to the fullest? Or would you rather show them how you squandered it? Roger may be an athiest, but he is still a good person, and he is successful. So I would say that much good has happened for him.
Who is to say that we all won't be in "paradise" when judement is laid down?
- wowser - 09-29-2004 01:10 PM
i really enjoyed your post, Albatross :)
- Steve Hill - 09-29-2004 01:44 PM
I too thought it was thoughtful and well conceived. I know whenever I have asked my father for his beliefs, (all my family are still officially roman catholic, but none of us are practicing and my father was the only one I was unsure his actual beliefs), he merely stated he believed in a higher power that controls the universe and all in it. Not necessarily a God, but something that would set the rules and that created the universe in the first place, maybe the one who forced the big bang to happen.
I always thought that this was a nice way of staying loosely connected to religion without actually belonging spiritually to any defined order or denomination. I don't agree with it myself and still maintain there is nothing, but it does strike me that more people are meeting the belief/athiest thing halfway and coming up with their own set of beliefs now.
- Albatross - 09-30-2004 06:24 AM
wowser Wrote:i really enjoyed your post, Albatross :)Thank you. This is a subject that I have debated and looked into for a long time.
Quote:...people are meeting the belief/athiest thing halfway and coming up with their own set of beliefs now.
This is very true. The religions of the old don't seem to "fit" for a lot of people, so they are making ones that do fit. Isn't that one of the pros of being an intelligent being...our ability to evolve our thinking?