Considering he died in a fire fight, I don't think capturing him was much of an option, but I still think it would have been far more desirable an outcome than killing him. Not to say I wish he was still alive, but for him to have been captured and put on trial would've seemed a lot more satisfying, since if you just kill him, a hundred more will rise to his place. It just seems like it was simple petty vengeance, and nothing more.

Celebrating someone's death with a national holiday like some seem to want is abhorrent, but at the same time it's not like we should be sad about it. He was a horrible person, and I'm sure his death brings relief to some 9/11 families, which is good, and this was never a perfect scenario to begin with.

(05-03-2011 02:39 PM)Lady Floydian Wrote:  Joe, you are aware that the picture of "Osama" purported to be his dead body is in fact, a Photoshop right? The US government hasn't released any photos of the body yet, and they are still in the process of determining when they should. There is nothing fishy about this in any way. You don't need to be freaked out about anything. So please remove the tinfoil hat, there's no conspiracy anywhere. They gave him a proper Muslim burial, only they dumped him in the ocean somewhere to keep his body and/or grave site from being a place of pilgrimage for other terrorists. That's just common sense. Sorry. The last thing we need is a bunch of terrorists descending on a hole in the ground, vowing revenge. They're doing that already, we don't need to give them a meeting place.

You have no idea why the US did what they did, nor the intel they've slowly been gathering over the last three or four years, dating back to before Obama's election, so you shouldn't wax philosophic about something you don't know anything about. There's a difference between taking joy in someone's death and realizing that some people aren't fit to breathe oxygen anymore for the threat their continued existence creates. There's no joy in that, only the resignation that sometimes people need to die. That's not a good thing, that's not a happy thing, that's a fact of life. Life is not black and white, as much as you might think so. It's very naive to think that way. Life is shades of gray. Get used to it now, or face a sh!tload of disappointment when you get older.

Else than saying that all of this is fishy, there was nothing naive about Joe's post. Him saying that they should have captured him comes from an equally knowledgeable viewpoint as somebody else saying they couldn't have captured him. Nobody knows what happened and what didn't happen, so I don't see why it'd be naive to say that Bin Laden should have been captured and put on trial. I agree fully with Joe, concerning that.

On "the deader the better": I think it's pretty shallow to think that Osama is better off dead, without thinking about any of the consequences this may have. As Cabbage Love said, this isn't particularly beneficial at all.

Not to mention that I actually wonder how much Bin Laden really had to do with terrorist attacks like 9/11.

(05-04-2011 03:39 AM)Arno Sluismans Wrote:  

(05-03-2011 02:39 PM)Lady Floydian Wrote:  Joe, you are aware that the picture of "Osama" purported to be his dead body is in fact, a Photoshop right? The US government hasn't released any photos of the body yet, and they are still in the process of determining when they should. There is nothing fishy about this in any way. You don't need to be freaked out about anything. So please remove the tinfoil hat, there's no conspiracy anywhere. They gave him a proper Muslim burial, only they dumped him in the ocean somewhere to keep his body and/or grave site from being a place of pilgrimage for other terrorists. That's just common sense. Sorry. The last thing we need is a bunch of terrorists descending on a hole in the ground, vowing revenge. They're doing that already, we don't need to give them a meeting place.

You have no idea why the US did what they did, nor the intel they've slowly been gathering over the last three or four years, dating back to before Obama's election, so you shouldn't wax philosophic about something you don't know anything about. There's a difference between taking joy in someone's death and realizing that some people aren't fit to breathe oxygen anymore for the threat their continued existence creates. There's no joy in that, only the resignation that sometimes people need to die. That's not a good thing, that's not a happy thing, that's a fact of life. Life is not black and white, as much as you might think so. It's very naive to think that way. Life is shades of gray. Get used to it now, or face a sh!tload of disappointment when you get older.

Else than saying that all of this is fishy, there was nothing naive about Joe's post. Him saying that they should have captured him comes from an equally knowledgeable viewpoint as somebody else saying they couldn't have captured him. Nobody knows what happened and what didn't happen, so I don't see why it'd be naive to say that Bin Laden should have been captured and put on trial. I agree fully with Joe, concerning that.

On "the deader the better": I think it's pretty shallow to think that Osama is better off dead, without thinking about any of the consequences this may have. As Cabbage Love said, this isn't particularly beneficial at all.

Not to mention that I actually wonder how much Bin Laden really had to do with terrorist attacks like 9/11.

My "naive" comment had nothing to do with Joe's opinion that it would have been better to capture Bin Laden than kill him. In fact, I had moved on from that point entirely by the time I made that comment. So I don't know why you think that's what I was referring to.

Capturing him would have been a nightmare in so many facets. Would the case be in a civil court or military, if civil where would it be held? If here in America it would have been a recipe for disaster, a media circus, a distinct possibility of protests, unrest and even retribution. If military that would have furthered terrorists outcries off "two-faced American justice". Where would he have been held in custody...? What city would want him? Would you want him incarcerated near where you and your family until the trial? And I imagine plenty of lawyers would want the publicity and would love the spotlight which would end up dragging (what would probably be a foregone conclusion) out for weeks and weeks, which would cost us, the taxpayers, millions and millions (no way it wouldn't, security alone would be sky high). Also, if in America he would be able to defend himself, you really want him to have access to govt. records in order to prepare his defense, and really, NO WAY he'd be allowed to speak in his own defense, but our law says he could! I cannot imagine what kind of martyr we'd be creating if that happened. Then comes the punishment, just suppose he got life...once again what facility and where? And God only can imagine how much it would cost to keep him safely locked up, and keep the rest of the inmates and the local population safe. If death penalty (obviously once again our system would allow plenty of time for unrest to develop) then how and where would he be executed, and then there's the body. No way you could create a grave site which could become a monument (and cost $$$ to police, God help us if somehow someone stole his body) and "mecca" for terrorists (and would you want granny and auntie buried beside him). Once again you'd just be adding fuel to an already volatile situation. No, pretty much anyway I look at it he had to, unfortunately, die and then his body disappear...otherwise there are just way too many complications.

(05-03-2011 02:39 PM)Lady Floydian Wrote:  Joe, you are aware that the picture of "Osama" purported to be his dead body is in fact, a Photoshop right? The US government hasn't released any photos of the body yet, and they are still in the process of determining when they should.

Yes, I just learned that.

(05-03-2011 02:39 PM)Lady Floydian Wrote:  There is nothing fishy about this in any way. You don't need to be freaked out about anything. So please remove the tinfoil hat, there's no conspiracy anywhere.

I will not eliminate the possibility of a conspiracy before I see solid evidence. I do not trust the American government. I do not trust any governments.

(05-03-2011 02:39 PM)Lady Floydian Wrote:  They gave him a proper Muslim burial, only they dumped him in the ocean somewhere to keep his body and/or grave site from being a place of pilgrimage for other terrorists. That's just common sense. Sorry. The last thing we need is a bunch of terrorists descending on a hole in the ground, vowing revenge. They're doing that already, we don't need to give them a meeting place.

Agreed.

(05-03-2011 02:39 PM)Lady Floydian Wrote:  You have no idea why the US did what they did, nor the intel they've slowly been gathering over the last three or four years, dating back to before Obama's election, so you shouldn't wax philosophic about something you don't know anything about.

I don't understand how knowing what the US has been doing has to do with taking joy in someone's death.

(05-03-2011 02:39 PM)Lady Floydian Wrote:  There's a difference between taking joy in someone's death and realizing that some people aren't fit to breathe oxygen anymore for the threat their continued existence creates.

You're contradicting your own American policy. Isn't the USA against death trial? Besides, I agree that Ben Laden should have died. I just don't understand how people can celebrate death...except for the ones who were seeking revenge, and that's a special case.

(05-03-2011 02:39 PM)Lady Floydian Wrote:  Life is not black and white, as much as you might think so. It's very naive to think that way. Life is shades of gray. Get used to it now, or face a sh!tload of disappointment when you get older.

I fail to see the relevance of this. What does this have to do with my objection upon taking joy in someone's death?

(05-03-2011 03:35 PM)wet dream Wrote:  As far as Bin Laden goes, the deader the better.

I don't have any feelings for Ben Laden. I hate the guy, I hate the whole thing, I hate the way he thinks. I'm not even religious, and I do not think Islam is by any means, divine. That does not give me the right to kill him. And, even though we sometimes have to kill people so that life can go on peacefully, I don't think we should be by any means, enjoying these moments.

(05-03-2011 09:58 PM)only floyd Wrote:  Let's all pray that one day all humanity will understand that life whatever our beliefs should be respected, appreciated, loved and above all to have the upmost gratitude for the time we have on this, and lets not forget, still wonderful world.

Yes !

(05-04-2011 03:39 AM)Arno Sluismans Wrote:  On "the deader the better": I think it's pretty shallow to think that Osama is better off dead, without thinking about any of the consequences this may have. As Cabbage Love said, this isn't particularly beneficial at all.

I completely agree. This is a very bad scenario to begin with and it's inevitable. Now that Ben Laden is gone, I'm expecting problems among the Qaida, Islamists, in Pakistan and Afghanistan since he used to be what stuck them "together". I'm expecting some retaliation as a response to Ben Laden's death. I also expect the US to interfere...again. I expect The Middle East to be on fire for the next few months.

(05-04-2011 03:39 AM)Arno Sluismans Wrote:  Not to mention that I actually wonder how much Bin Laden really had to do with terrorist attacks like 9/11.

This is what I think aswell! We don't know if it really was Ben Laden. The video tape has terrible quality, the guy does not act or look like Ben Laden. The guy is right handed, and according to the FBI, Ben Laden is left handed...the whole thing is fishy. I'm not making any judgements, I'm just saying that I question everything, especially the things media suggest.

(05-04-2011 09:06 AM)Joe Wrote:  You're contradicting your own American policy. Isn't the USA against death trial?

What is "death trial"? Do you mean the death penalty? No, the US has not outlawed it on a federal level, though it has been abolished at the state level in some states.

Quote:What does this have to do with my objection upon taking joy in someone's death?

Object all you like. Osama Bin Laden deserved to die, he was killed, and I'm not sorry it happened. That doesn't mean when I heard the news I started dancing around with a smile on my face, because I didn't. That would be joy. What I felt was more a sense of relief. I know people personally affected by 9/11, I remember their sorrow and grief then, and I was reminded of it when the news flashed that the Navy SEALs killed him. I was happy that those people finally had a sense of closure, but again.....I wasn't doing a jig of glee around my living room.

I'm going back to what I said earlier -- life is not black and white. Sometimes it's perfectly appropriate to feel a sense of relief that someone died that needed to die.

I don't know what "life is not black and white" means.
It is sad that Ben Laden needed to die. It is sad that 9/11 happened (whether it was Ben Laden or not). It is sad that Ben Laden died (Not because he was a good man...he was obviously not, but simply because killing is a saddening action). But, what had to be done was done. We agree on this.

I've explained numerous times in this thread what I mean by "life is not black and white." It's a very commonly-used expression.

Commonly-used or not, it appears to be vague and I don't think it brings anything to the discussion.

It isn't vague, and it's your opinion that it doesn't "bring anything to the discussion." Not to mention, that's extremely rude. When someone says that life (or anything) isn't black and white, it means it's not simple. Everything in life is not a clear yes or no. There are almost endless variables in that gray area between black and white. We live in the shades of gray. Which absolutely ties in to what I was saying earlier. You said it's "wrong" to be happy or find joy in Osama Bin Laden's death because killing is wrong.....and I said life isn't black and white. Meaning. it's not that simple just to say "killing is wrong" or that finding joy in the death of someone like Osama Bin Laden is wrong. I had family in Germany suffer through the Hitler/Nazi regime (though they weren't Jews), and you damn well better believe they were singing folk songs of happiness when it was announced that he'd offed himself.

Was that "wrong" of them? Hell no. They suffered, and their suffering was lifted. That's a joyous occasion in my book. Osama Bin Laden was indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people all over the world. He was a serial killer. He caused grief and torment and anguish and pain and suffering and you know something? It's okay to kill that person, and it's okay if some people out there want to be happy and joyful at the fact he's dead. He can't cause anymore deaths, he can't sit around in a cave or palace somewhere smug in the knowledge that he's caused thousands of deaths and gotten away with it.

Sometimes killing is right. If someone raped and murdered my sister, I'd push the plunger to kill that sorry bastard myself. If the crimes you've committed are so heinous, so noxious, so unfathomable, then your death can only be seen as a positive.