It is my opinion, and that is why I said "I think". If you thought my post was rude, then you may aswell read your last few posts, and re-evaluate this.

Now that I think of it, you are right. Sometimes death can be seen as positive. I've never dealt with this kind of situations. I stand corrected.

No matter how much I may disagree with something you've said, Arno has said, or anyone else has said, I've never told someone I think what they've said brings nothing to do the discussion. That's basically saying you think what they've said is worthless and that is something I've never nor will ever say to someone.

So maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on that point, but you IMO crossed a line that I would not cross.

I'd rather have this discussion in a private chat.

(05-04-2011 12:43 PM)Lady Floydian Wrote:  It isn't vague, and it's your opinion that it doesn't "bring anything to the discussion." Not to mention, that's extremely rude. When someone says that life (or anything) isn't black and white, it means it's not simple. Everything in life is not a clear yes or no. There are almost endless variables in that gray area between black and white. We live in the shades of gray. Which absolutely ties in to what I was saying earlier. You said it's "wrong" to be happy or find joy in Osama Bin Laden's death because killing is wrong.....and I said life isn't black and white. Meaning. it's not that simple just to say "killing is wrong" or that finding joy in the death of someone like Osama Bin Laden is wrong. I had family in Germany suffer through the Hitler/Nazi regime (though they weren't Jews), and you damn well better believe they were singing folk songs of happiness when it was announced that he'd offed himself.

Was that "wrong" of them? Hell no. They suffered, and their suffering was lifted. That's a joyous occasion in my book. Osama Bin Laden was indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people all over the world. He was a serial killer. He caused grief and torment and anguish and pain and suffering and you know something? It's okay to kill that person, and it's okay if some people out there want to be happy and joyful at the fact he's dead. He can't cause anymore deaths, he can't sit around in a cave or palace somewhere smug in the knowledge that he's caused thousands of deaths and gotten away with it.

Sometimes killing is right. If someone raped and murdered my sister, I'd push the plunger to kill that sorry bastard myself. If the crimes you've committed are so heinous, so noxious, so unfathomable, then your death can only be seen as a positive.

I personally think you're a bit off on this. Yes, a villain's death can produce joyful reactions out of people, but I highly doubt that this is much other than the "bittersweet flavour of revenge". No person is better off dead than alive. No person is capable of judging whether a person deserves life or not, and if anybody is capable of it, certainly it's not people like you or me.

I think it's important to realise that - however menacing, evil and tasteless his way of working was - Osama Bin Laden had a goal to achieve, and it wasn't just to threaten people into accepting the Islam. People do everything with a reason, and unlike Hitler, whose inclinations and intentions are documented in detail, there isn't much knowledge about Bin Laden's motivations, other than the things the American government has indoctrinated us into believing. If one of my family members would have died in 9/11, I'd be crying into a bucket right now, because my desire to know why they died would have been much bigger than my desire to avenge them.

To continue on your example about if your sister'd get raped: Right before finally murdering that person, you'd probably hold them down and make them confess every word about why they did what they did. (Unless you're actually just looking for revenge, of course.) If you'd not do that, you'd end up wondering what exactly happened, and in case your sister isn't able to tell you, you'll wonder this for the rest of your life. I figuratively challenge you to imagine how it must feel to live with such a thought.

Exactly that is what the relatives of 9/11's victims go through right now. They're relieved with Bin Laden being killed, but their desire for information will only grow because of this. Short lived happiness.

(05-04-2011 03:43 PM)Arno Sluismans Wrote:  To continue on your example about if your sister'd get raped: Right before finally murdering that person, you'd probably hold them down and make them confess every word about why they did what they did. (Unless you're actually just looking for revenge, of course.) If you'd not do that, you'd end up wondering what exactly happened, and in case your sister isn't able to tell you, you'll wonder this for the rest of your life. I figuratively challenge you to imagine how it must feel to live with such a thought.

I didn't say I'd murder that person. "Push the plunger" refers to lethal injection, or the death penalty. If the person in this hypothetical is being executed, that means they've been tried and convicted. Which means I know what happened to my sister, and don't need to coerce a confession out of the person. What I'm saying I'd do is administer one of the drugs myself. There's two different drugs used in a lethal injection, by the by.

However, to answer your question, I already know how that feels. I watched someone blow their brains out in front me, and have had to live with the ramifications of that ever since. I didn't know why they did it, I'll never know why they did it. They were a close friend, they were also deeply disturbed. I tried for years to make peace with it, to try and find answers, to try and do anything I could to get inside their mind at that moment, and have failed. So believe me when I say, I know what that pain and uncertainty is like.

(05-04-2011 09:06 AM)Joe Wrote:  

(05-03-2011 03:35 PM)wet dream Wrote:  As far as Bin Laden goes, the deader the better.

I don't have any feelings for Ben Laden. I hate the guy, I hate the whole thing, I hate the way he thinks. I'm not even religious, and I do not think Islam is by any means, divine. That does not give me the right to kill him. And, even though we sometimes have to kill people so that life can go on peacefully, I don't think we should be by any means, enjoying these moments.

Joe we all die one day. Bin Laden got what he wanted, well almost.
He got his brains splattered all over the wall, it would have been quick. He will be judged, just like the rest of us will be one day, he just got there a bit faster.
The US got what they wanted, to capture or kill Bin Laden. It's very symbolic that the US Seals got him and did this in a foreign country. Better still they got his computer, Hard drive and lots of USB storage devises. so hopefully there will be a few more capture or kill operations in the future.
I didn't go out and party after hearing the news of his death, but I did have a big smile on my face when I told my wife. It's no secret, I was very pleased to hear this news.
The dumping of his body in the ocean can only be a good thing, I just hope the fish don't get sick.
I feel those many people who think he should of be captured don't realize what a problem the would have created.

A general statement. Great debates make a strong forum, however each of us has an opinion and more important, sensitivities. Let's all try to respect each others. One of the most difficult parts of reading and posting on a forum is being able to avoid jumping to conclusions, hence getting upset over things they've misunderstood or a tone taken wrong. Strong thoughts and strong opinions are always welcome at pfo, offensive ones are not.

c.

Unfortunately Osama's death doesn't matter one inch. There are dozens and dozens like him, standing in the shadow, ready to take over. And a mob of fanatics ready to follow the lead.

It's not possible to exterminate stupidity, narrow mindedness or sheer evil by killing one person. Although I do see the symbolism of this deed.

@wet dream Don't know what you mean by stating that we'll all be judged one day. By whom?
Only history will tell whether we're right or wrong, in retrospect, by the living, not by some otherworldly being.
Ridiculous beliefs are the roots of all evil. Osama has now become a martyr and is thus entitled to a harem of virgins. According to his belief system, he's done the right thing.

(05-06-2011 05:14 PM)silverpot Wrote:  Ridiculous beliefs are the roots of all evil. Osama has now become a martyr and is thus entitled to a harem of virgins. According to his belief system, he's done the right thing.

I hope you're not talking about Islam. I'm not a believer myself, but I respect Islam because it's a peaceful religion, and it does not imply violence by any means. Supposedly, suicide bombing is a one way ticket to hell.

(05-06-2011 05:14 PM)silverpot Wrote:  @wet dream Don't know what you mean by stating that we'll all be judged one day. By whom?

Not Bin Laden I hope.