ah, there something. I'm a big form follows function kinda' guy, so the thing dosen't appeal to me, but if I wanted to see all of that gore? thats what my bareknuckle bear hunts are for.

I've just done some reading on fox-hunting, and it does sound fairly moronic and cruel: a bunch of rich pompous "high-born" twats chasing around foxes with their dogs, who tear the foxes to pieces when they catch them. So, it fails my "good hunting" criteria by at least two criteria.

In contrast, in Australia, foxes were introduced by the same moronic "sportmen," and are now causing havoc with the native wildlife, so they are hunted with guns to keep them from damaging the environment further. Now, THAT I have no problem with whatsoever. Unfortunately, it's probably impossible to rid Australia of rabbits, but when non-native species are threatening unique native species, I'm all for getting rid of the invasive species by any reasonable means.

Anyway, as I mentioned before, Roger never said that he was for fox-hunting done in the "traditional" pompous-ass style, just that he didn't support a ban on it. There is a difference there.

Thats the way to do it, convince people of their folly and see them walk away from the deal on their own, not to hang paper on them.

I do not normally rise to the bait when I see silly posts on forums such as these but I feel compelled to reply here.

A common misconception seems to be that fox hunting is only enjoyed by 'toffs' or those or those of a higher social standing. This is complete nonsense, as anyone who has attended a fox hunt will testify. Many folk are ordinary working class people who own horses. Hunting is their hobby, just as fishing is to many other folk in the United Kingdom. Those that say it is a rich mans pleasure clearly have no understanding of hunting or what it is, which leads me neartly onto my next point: don't criticise what you can't understand (to quote Bob Dylan). The vast majority of hunting detractors are city folk who have never ventured into suburbs, let alone the country. Don't come to the country and tell country folk how to live their lives. If you had any idea of that life, you would know that keeping livestock such as chickens is nigh on impossible when foxes are prevalant. A fox will enter a chicken coup and kill every single bird present and will not eat one of them. It will do so purely for the purpose of killing them, nothing more.

Another point I feel I must make; anyone who eats meat and subsequently calls fox hunting barbaric is deluded at best and a gross hypocrite at worst. Whilst it may be convenient to go to a supermarket in the 21st century and purchase a piece of meat wrapped in cellophane, it serves only to distance the end consumer from the horrors that that animal has had to endure to end up on a plate. I can assure you that - whilst watching a video of a fluffy little fox being ripped to pieces by hounds may be horrific - it pales in comparison to the suffering that animals have to endure in a slaughter house. I have seen videos of pigs hung up by their hind legs and electrocuted to kill them - they have not died from the initial electrocution and have subsequently hung their screaming like a hundred babies. Believe me, it is beyond horrific. Only vegetarians truly have the right to criticise fox hunting. And before we start on the old argument that hunting is for pleasure whilst eating an animal is essential, lets be quite clear that in this day and age no one has to eat meat. Its is only through personal choice (and therefore pleasure) that people choose to eat meat. There are plenty of meat alternatives on the market these days which negate the need for a meat based diet.

Going to back to Roger I imagine his gripe is more to do with the fact that Great Britain has been taken over by the politically correct lefty liberal brigade who are constantly telling us how to live our lives. We can't smoke in a pub anymore. We can't hunt anymore. We can't discipline our kids anymore. If an intruder breaks into our homes, we are as likely to get fined for stopping him as he is for breaking into our property in the first place. The freedom to choose ones way of life is under threat in what is supposed to be a free nation. From someone who is witnessing this first hand I can only applaud Roger for the stance he is taking.

And before anyone starts, I do enjoy eating meat, I don't hunt, I don't smoke and I have no kids.

Xfilian Wrote:I do not normally rise to the bait when I see silly posts on forums such as these but I feel compelled to reply here.

A common misconception seems to be that fox hunting is only enjoyed by 'toffs' or those or those of a higher social standing. This is complete nonsense, as anyone who has attended a fox hunt will testify. Many folk are ordinary working class people who own horses. Hunting is their hobby, just as fishing is to many other folk in the United Kingdom. Those that say it is a rich mans pleasure clearly have no understanding of hunting or what it is, which leads me neartly onto my next point: don't criticise what you can't understand (to quote Bob Dylan). The vast majority of hunting detractors are city folk who have never ventured into suburbs, let alone the country. Don't come to the country and tell country folk how to live their lives. If you had any idea of that life, you would know that keeping livestock such as chickens is nigh on impossible when foxes are prevalant. A fox will enter a chicken coup and kill every single bird present and will not eat one of them. It will do so purely for the purpose of killing them, nothing more.

Another point I feel I must make; anyone who eats meat and subsequently calls fox hunting barbaric is deluded at best and a gross hypocrite at worst. Whilst it may be convenient to go to a supermarket in the 21st century and purchase a piece of meat wrapped in cellophane, it serves only to distance the end consumer from the horrors that that animal has had to endure to end up on a plate. I can assure you that - whilst watching a video of a fluffy little fox being ripped to pieces by hounds may be horrific - it pales in comparison to the suffering that animals have to endure in a slaughter house. I have seen videos of pigs hung up by their hind legs and electrocuted to kill them - they have not died from the initial electrocution and have subsequently hung their screaming like a hundred babies. Believe me, it is beyond horrific. Only vegetarians truly have the right to criticise fox hunting. And before we start on the old argument that hunting is for pleasure whilst eating an animal is essential, lets be quite clear that in this day and age no one has to eat meat. Its is only through personal choice (and therefore pleasure) that people choose to eat meat. There are plenty of meat alternatives on the market these days which negate the need for a meat based diet.

Going to back to Roger I imagine his gripe is more to do with the fact that Great Britain has been taken over by the politically correct lefty liberal brigade who are constantly telling us how to live our lives. We can't smoke in a pub anymore. We can't hunt anymore. We can't discipline our kids anymore. If an intruder breaks into our homes, we are as likely to get fined for stopping him as he is for breaking into our property in the first place. The freedom to choose ones way of life is under threat in what is supposed to be a free nation. From someone who is witnessing this first hand I can only applaud Roger for the stance he is taking.

And before anyone starts, I do enjoy eating meat, I don't hunt, I don't smoke and I have no kids.

Some good points made here.

But, I have to say: where I'm from, we hunt for meat. My parents had a rule when I was a kid: you shoot it, you eat it. The one exception was for raccoons that get into the chickens. I know about this subject pretty well because I grew up taking care of about 100 chickens. However, why you would need some elaborate hunt to protect your chickens is way beyond my comprehension. A well-aimed shot from a gun is far simpler and less cruel.

I've seen videos of fox-hunting, and I gotta say: they sure didn't look like working class people. They looked like a bunch of country squire rural landlord types, fancy clothes and all--the same type of people that hold down working class folks while pretending to speak up for them.

And finally: "politically correct lefty liberal brigade." It's bad enough to hear this kind of fuzzy namecalling from Americans, but you British should know better. You have a "liberal" party, and it's not exactly left-wing. "Liberal" doesn't mean left-wing in the vast majority of the world (witness the right-wing Liberal Democratic Party here in Japan), and just because we Americans have invented a subliterate use of the word doesn't mean that you British have to imitate us. Do you really believe that we know how to use the English language better than you do?

You can argue all you want, but now its the law so it must be followed and cant be changed. grow some balls and catch the fox youself with your own two feet and i will give you credit.

What about the wolf hunting in alaska where they chase the animal down with a plane till it grows too tired, then they shoot it. alsakan voters have voted 3 times on the issue trying to ban it, yet it hasnt been banned yet!

Rogerwaterhasgonemad Wrote:You can argue all you want, but now its the law so it must be followed and cant be changed. grow some balls and catch the fox youself with your own two feet and i will give you credit.

What about the wolf hunting in alaska where they chase the animal down with a plane till it grows too tired, then they shoot it. alsakan voters have voted 3 times on the issue trying to ban it, yet it hasnt been banned yet!

As someone who grew up hunting, this is exactly the kind of thing I mean: cowardly, unsportmanlike hunting practices give all hunters a bad name. I totally agree with Xfilian's point about slaughterhouses being far more cruel than hunting, which is one of the reasons why I don't like meat-eating non-hunters to point fingers at me (= hypocrisy), but I don't want to be lumped in with fox-hunters, bear-baiters, and hunting wolves from planes.

"A fox will enter a chicken coup and kill every single bird present and will not eat one of them. It will do so purely for the purpose of killing them, nothing more."

And this is why one does not use animal behavior as a comparitive guage for human behavior. Some argue we are all animals & made out of the same stuff,therefore our behaviors can be thought of as being comparable. But this is a rot argument, humans have a VERY different & more developed cerebral cortex, Chakra points & a thumb as well. Therefore we & the rest of the animal kingdom are in fact very different. The point being, arguing the "animals do it, therefore it must be natural for humans as well" is a dumb argument. Homosexuals use this one a lot. & hunters use it as well. They argue all nature has to kill other living things to survive. This is true, however, we humans can & well should hunt for food, not for sport because we are more sentient & higher developed consciously than foxes are. Killing just to kill like the fox does does not impress me as a higher cerebral cortex sort of activity.

Dogfigts, cockfights as well are examples of some of the less cerebrally developed humans among us.

Speaking of food & humans. Did anyone see the in ocean fish farming documentary? Very interesting. They now have giant cages that are placed in the ocean so currents pass through them & waste does not build up. Fish are healthier. Half the fish we eat today is farmed.

Nice debate in this thread...good to see it widen into animal welfare as a whole.
The pitfalls aren`t as glaring here as the silly hypocrisy I saw in the "why do other cultures eat what the West calls pets" thread I read the other day.

As it happens, I`ve been a vegetarian for some 17 years, because I believe the unnecessary killing of all animals is wrong. But I`m not militant about it....no blowing up of abattoirs for me.

Quote: Xfilian Wrote:
anyone who eats meat and subsequently calls fox hunting barbaric is deluded at best and a gross hypocrite at worst

For those who`ve said abattoir-killing can be just as cruel as fox-hunting, well, to an extent they`re right (that`s why I`m a vegetarian) but, as chromey has said, that doesn`t work as a defence of fox-hunting, because at least it`s connected with food production...and not the simple blood-lust of killing for enjoyment.
Deep down, everybody realises this distinction, whatever they may say (be they burger-lovin`meat-eaters, or militant in-yer-face veggies).
Here`s an example that everybody`s experienced....you see two women walking down the street, one is wearing a leather jacket...the other is wearing a mink coat. The sense of revulsion at the mink would be much greater than to the leather jacket. In fact I wouldn`t trust anybody who didn`t think the mink was worse. Now why does everyone here know what I`m talking about?....Because even if we haven`t thought about it, at least subconsciously we`re aware of one being a mere by-product of food-production...and the other being a sheer unnecessary cruel waste.
Fox-hunting is barbarism...ritualised barbarism at that.

Quote: Xfilian Wrote:
Only vegetarians truly have the right to criticise fox hunting.

Ok, well I don`t agree, but as you`ve given me the "right", I will criticise it!
I agree there`s hypocrisy in the wider debate, but not so much in the "pros and cons of fox-hunting" (to bring Rog in)...as the example I gave above aimed to illustrate.

I`m actually not really an animal-lover. I watch wildlife programmes, but I`m not one to get over-emotional over pets. In fact it seems the people who over-anthropomorphise their pets, are very often the ones who don`t give a damn what`s on their dinner plate....sentimentality without a moral code.
Some people are bemused by this stance, when they find I`m a vegetarian (and that I choose it for moral reasons, not health)...
"You don`t like animals much, and you`re a vegetarian...how does that work?!!"....
...Hey, I don`t much care for door-to-door salesmen either, but it doesn`t mean that I propose we kill and eat them!...so for me that`s unsentimentality with a moral code.

Back to Rog....I`m disappointed in him, but not enough to prevent me seeing him, because I think it`s way down the list of priorities. The hundreds of hours of Parliamentary debating time devoted to it when there were more important things to resolve, was criminal.

It seems that the wealthy a person is, the more likely to engage in cruel sport: fox hunting, horse racing, fur coats and big time game hunters. And then you have the other end of the scale, the aholes that think dog and cock fighting are great entertainment. "If I had my way", and you know the rest of that song.