Cirrus Miner
Piper at the Gates of Dawn
Posts: 79
Joined: Jan 2006
Reputation: 0
|
I didn't mean that Ted Nugent doesn't know what he's talking about I meant that someone with an obviously less darwinist view of life such as Roger Waters would not support foxhunting without good reason.
|
|
| 01-22-2006 06:42 PM |
|
Philintheflesh
The Wall
Posts: 2,557
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 13
|
mabewa Wrote:Hey, as long as we're on the topic of fox-hunting, can anyone post a coherant explanation of why fox-hunting is a legitimate sport?
Well, apart from the fact that it satisfies the blood-lust of cretins, I can`t think.
Apparently, two of the "arguments" are [1] "it would see the end of a whole way of life", and [2] "a lot of people associated with the Hunt would lose their jobs"
When they closed the concentration camps at the end of WW2, it saw the end of a "whole way of life", and a lot of people running them "lost their jobs".....it`s hardly an argument.
Apparently, chasing a defenceless animal across miles of farmland on horse-back, while dressed like a prick and blowing a horn, in order to see it ripped to pieces by fox-hounds is fun. How "sporting".
A sport for "gentlemen". ???
Icy wind of night be gone...this is not your domain
|
|
| 01-22-2006 11:09 PM |
|
mabewa
Wish You Were Here
Posts: 1,894
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 11
|
Thanks. Anybody else?
As I said earlier, there is hunting and there is hunting. On my little rural island in Washington state, shooting a deer puts meat into freezers and keeps the deer from overpopulating and starving. We are all less thrilled about city people who come to the island and shoot cows, windows, barns, and other things that they mistake for deer, but I can at least say that OUR hunting has benefits. Vegans may disagree, but I am quite sure that the venison I used to shoot lived and died in a far more humane way than the cattle that go into your average McDonald's burger.
What are the benefits of fox-hunting? For example, are the foxes eaten? Are their skins used? Is this something that helps significant numbers of poor rural people in any way? Will the foxes overpopulate if they are not hunted?
While I am on this topic, there is also a big difference between animal welfare and animal rights. A little story: I used to have a dingbat vegan friend who refused to spay her dog because "she has the same rights as me and I wouldn't want to be spayed." Of course, her dog regularly produced litters of puppies. I pointed out that this added to the overpopulation of dogs in Seattle, but she responded by saying "Oh, I always find a home for them!" One time, however, we were with another friend of mine: a young woman who works at an animal shelter--in other words, someone who works in animal welfare. My vegan friend explained why she wouldn't spay her dog, and my animal-welfare friend ripped her to shreds. Basically, she explained that there are only so many people who are able or willing to raise pets in any given urban area, so people who successfully give away dozens of puppies just make it harder for animal shelters to do the same... thus more dogs are put to sleep.
Animal welfare is right-on--try to find good homes for them, and if it doesn't work, put them to sleep in a humane way.
Edited By mabewa on 1138002080
|
|
| 01-22-2006 11:30 PM |
|
Space Cadet
A Momentary Lapse of Reason
Posts: 3,707
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 7
|
It seems as though Roger is being targeted for taking part in an activity that contradicts his beliefs, even if on a low level, simply for the reason that he is a celebrity and all actions are amplified when you purchase that package. Being both a Vegan animal rights activist and a firm fan of Mr. Waters, this is a tough topic to take a stand in. But, considering that the subject initially opened by referring to Roger as a "hypocrite," I will say that war and hunting are two entirely different themes despite the expected occurence of death in each focus. That, however, does not mean I agree with the pursuing of living creatures.
And what's this talk of animals not having souls? Are you suggesting that they are sole utilitarians incapable of having personalities of their own or developing characteristically? I don't think that is for you to decide.
And who's the fool who wears the crown?
|
|
| 01-23-2006 01:19 AM |
|
Skol
Ummagumma
Posts: 370
Joined: Jan 2005
Reputation: 0
|
Philintheflesh Wrote:mabewa Wrote:Hey, as long as we're on the topic of fox-hunting, can anyone post a coherant explanation of why fox-hunting is a legitimate sport?
Well, apart from the fact that it satisfies the blood-lust of cretins, I can`t think.
Apparently, two of the "arguments" are [1] "it would see the end of a whole way of life", and [2] "a lot of people associated with the Hunt would lose their jobs"
When they closed the concentration camps at the end of WW2, it saw the end of a "whole way of life", and a lot of people running them "lost their jobs".....it`s hardly an argument.
Apparently, chasing a defenceless animal across miles of farmland on horse-back, while dressed like a prick and blowing a horn, in order to see it ripped to pieces by fox-hounds is fun. How "sporting".
A sport for "gentlemen". ???
Oh do **** off. The holocaust reference is the most insulting thing I have read on this forum. There is no comparison between fox hunting and the mass murder of millions of people.
I wouldn't go as far to call fox hunting a sport but I would call it a traditional pastime. I don't paticularly agree with it happening solely for 'sport' but it does have a profound effect on the countryside. Fox Hunting was used as a political football for the General Elections took the heat very much off Labour and Blair for lying about Iraq.
|
|
| 01-23-2006 03:59 AM |
|
mabewa
Wish You Were Here
Posts: 1,894
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 11
|
The poster was not comparing hunting foxes and killing millions of human beings. He was saying that you could use the "ending a way of life" argument and "jobs will be lost" argument to justify anything... even something as clearly horrible as the Holocaust. I don't necessarily agree with his point of view, but I think you missed his intentions.
The debate about whether animals have souls (or whether anyone has souls) is a bit much for me to tackle, but one thing I KNOW: animals do have feelings. Anyone who has ever owned a cat or a dog should have noticed that animals definitely have feelings.
The following is well-stated:
Quote:I know this thread has gone off-topic, but a nod to the original thread - yes Roger IS a hypocrite...but that`s just the human condition..we all are to some extent. Artists are very often complex, driven people who are less than perfect. If being inconsiderate, difficult, egocentric, selfish and hypocritical was a barrier to producing great art, we wouldn`t have half the great works we do have. Roger`s hypocrisy doesn`t lessen his stature as an artist - if anything, it makes him more intriguing.
|
|
| 01-23-2006 04:28 AM |
|
Philintheflesh
The Wall
Posts: 2,557
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 13
|
mabewa Wrote:The poster was not comparing hunting foxes and killing millions of human beings. He was saying that you could use the "ending a way of life" argument and "jobs will be lost" argument to justify anything... even something as clearly horrible as the Holocaust. I don't necessarily agree with his point of view, but I think you missed his intentions.
The debate about whether animals have souls (or whether anyone has souls) is a bit much for me to tackle, but one thing I KNOW: animals do have feelings. Anyone who has ever owned a cat or a dog should have noticed that animals definitely have feelings.
The following is well-stated:
Quote:I know this thread has gone off-topic, but a nod to the original thread - yes Roger IS a hypocrite...but that`s just the human condition..we all are to some extent. Artists are very often complex, driven people who are less than perfect. If being inconsiderate, difficult, egocentric, selfish and hypocritical was a barrier to producing great art, we wouldn`t have half the great works we do have. Roger`s hypocrisy doesn`t lessen his stature as an artist - if anything, it makes him more intriguing.
Thank you mabewa. Well-put - (matching your previous, thought-provoking, posts).
Your post saves me from having to point-out Skol`s misconception.
I would think it`s pretty clear to anybody (other than a complete cretin) that I was NOT equating fox-hunting with the holocaust in terms of level of tragedy.
I was using an extreme example of the argument, to show up how flawed that argument is.
Back to mabewa`s question, which was...
Quote:Can anyone post a coherent explanation as to why fox-hunting is a legitimate sport?
Edited By Philintheflesh on 1138052653
Icy wind of night be gone...this is not your domain
|
|
| 01-23-2006 12:49 PM |
|
floydianyid
Division Bell
Posts: 4,028
Joined: Dec 2003
Reputation: 4
|
Philintheflesh Wrote:Back to mabewa`s question, which was...
Quote:Can anyone post a coherent explanation as to why fox-hunting is a legitimate sport?
I don't think thats possible, It is and will never be considered sport.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW3gKKiTvjs
|
|
| 01-23-2006 06:55 PM |
|
rolanddoe
Wish You Were Here
Posts: 1,972
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation: 18
|
Even Bwana with his armada of Land Rovers and battalions of bearers was exposed to the charge of a rhino in it's death throes. Dozens of fox-hunters on horseback accompanied by a pack of hunting dogs are probably in no danger of even having their shiny black boots scuffed. No it's definitely not sport. You could easily get the same visceral thrill by saddling up the horse and taking the dogs for a run through the countryside. Fox hunters can replace this with so many other things. Join the yacht club and dive for giant clams! Package cruises to down under to box with kangaroos and develop the stealth and skills necessary to steal ostrich eggs. For the more faint of heart lepidoptery is a fine option so long as you don't mind the droves of wild foxes viciously nipping at your ankles. Even climbing a coconut tree with a machete is a challenge. Especially after a few Pina Coladas. Competitive ant farming! Swallowing goldfish....
Edited By rolanddoe on 1138090583
|
|
| 01-23-2006 11:09 PM |
|
mabewa
Wish You Were Here
Posts: 1,894
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 11
|
Quote:I was using an extreme example of the argument, to show up how flawed that argument is.
This has long been a common tactic in debate. It's kind of disturbing that so many people nowadays manage to miss it, and say "You're comparing A to B!" Just because "holocaust" and "fox-hunting" are being used in an argument does not mean that they are being directly compared. Read more carefully, people.
|
|
| 01-25-2006 12:26 AM |
|
Home
Search
Member List
Calendar
Help
