Jumpy
Wish You Were Here
Posts: 1,966
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 4
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Dear Roger,
I know that you are tech savvy, so on the off chance that you visit this site and read this message, I thought I'd write you here.
Roger, I've been a fan of your music for more than a quarter century. So believe me when I say I understand and appreciate your subject matter. I get it: War is bad.
Yet, I await the Pittsburgh stop on your current tour with mixed emotions, as I am disappointed by what I read in reviews of earlier shows on this tour. Frankly, I am angered as I think about your current show as it relates to this fifth anniversary of the 9/11 acts of war against the United States.
Please know that I am not a supporter of President Bush. In fact, I voted against him. Twice. I also believe that Bush has frequently been disingenuous when it comes to the "war on terror" -- specifically in regards to the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
At the same time, I believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was necessary and the right thing to do, given that the Taliban was giving safe haven to the plotters of the 9/11 attacks. So in short, I don't believe Bush is all bad; at times, he's had his priorities straight when crafting the difficult U.S. response to this unprecedented act of war.
I use the phrase "act of war" with a purpose, because of your mixed media messages and lyrics which suggest our President is a war criminal. If you are going to do that, why not use the opportunity to condemn those who started this war? Where are the images of Osama bin Laden? Where are the images of Mohammed Atta? Where are the images of the other pilots of those fateful 9/11 jetliners? Condemming Bush for his sometimes misguided response to acts of war is like condemming F.D.R. for Hiroshima, while giving Adolph Hitler a free pass.
You have written countless moving songs, or "stories," about your feelings related to growing up without your father who was lost in World War II. Then please, Roger, have some empathy to the motherless and fatherless victims of the 9/11 attacks. Have some feelings for the 7-year-old son of the firefighter who was crushed by tons of falling steel and concrete. Have some understanding for the 5-year-old daugher of the accountant who felt his "tears evaporate" as he literally melted from the heat of a missile launched by the cold heartless hands of Osama bin Laden. I fear that your current stance ignores many victims of this war -- those right here on U.S. soil.
Of course, as I said earlier, I'm only reacting to others' reviews of your shows, and I will wait to view it and make up my own mind. But if the reviews are accurate, I'm afraid I will be left with no other options than to give you a piece of my mind on Sept. 24. Regards,
A fan
Edited By Jumpy on 1157990155
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| 09-11-2006 06:30 AM |
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mabewa
Wish You Were Here
Posts: 1,894
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 11
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You've made some good points, Jumpy, and I agree with much of what you've written.
However, I think I know what Roger's reaction would be: he would say that the victims of 9/11 are given voice and tribute in numerous, myriad ways in American society. The people who Roger sings for, in contrast, are invisible, and many people feel that they are not even deserving of a voice at all.
As an American who was living abroad when 9/11 happen, I know that the victims of 9/11 were extensively mourned worldwide. Meanwhile, there are atrocities and disasters going on in the world that kill far more people, yet receive far less attention. The sad truth of the matter is that there are many millions of children around the world who have lost their parents as a result of war. There were many, many 9/11 songs recorded by many artists around the world, and perhaps Roger feels that his voice is more needed elsewhere. After all, the 9/11 victims will certainly not be forgotten, but who writes songs for all the other innocent victims of acts of war?
Edited By mabewa on 1157987778
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| 09-11-2006 07:08 AM |
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spacement
A Saucerful of Secrets
Posts: 105
Joined: Jul 2004
Reputation: 0
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Hey Jumpy, good points, however there are mothers like Cindy Sheehan who wouldn't agree with you. Not all who lost their loved ones fall in line behind Bush. If Roger is only going after Bush in his video images than things should not change. There are two sides to every argument and Roger doesn't seem to be on your side so let him voice his own opinion. The opinion of a fatherless child.
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| 09-11-2006 07:59 AM |
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pakistanifloyd
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Posts: 293
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 2
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Jumpy Wrote:Quote:At the same time, I believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was necessary and the right thing to do, given that the Taliban was giving safe haven to the plotters of the 9/11 attacks. So in short, I don't believe Bush is all bad; at times, he's had his priorities straight when crafting the difficult U.S. response to this unprecedented act of war.
Did you know who backed Taliban when Russians were standing tall? Did you know the plan of attacking Iraq was already on Bush govt. table highlighted by Rumsfield even before 9/11?
[quote]
I use the phrase "act of war" with a purpose, because of your mixed media messages and lyrics which suggest our President is a war criminal.
Yes President Bush is a war criminal just like Hitler was, just like Bin Laden!
Quote:why not use the opportunity to condemn those who started this war? Where are the images of Osama bin Laden?
Do you remember Roger Waters comments when all this happened? he said when you hurt someone you expect revenge! its a common perception in people i.e things started from 9/11, noway! history is there go & study it, understand the circumstances which created terrorists like Al-Qaeda.
Quote:Roger, have some empathy to the motherless and fatherless victims of the 9/11 attacks. Have some feelings for the 7-year-old son of the firefighter who was crushed by tons of falling steel and concrete. Have some understanding for the 5-year-old daugher of the accountant who felt his "tears evaporate" as he literally melted from the heat of a missile launched by the cold heartless hands of Osama bin Laden.
Who will write for millions of non-American children who died in Bosnia, Palestine, Kashmir, Iraq, Lebanon? They died in worst conditions, how can you forget 5 yr old girl shot straight on her heart by an Israeli tank? Its just a everyday story there, unfortunately we're not concerned with that part of the World, isn't it! So, out of America, a World exists and humans exists.
Is gentleness too much for us
Should gentleness be filed along with empathy
We feel for someone else's child
Every time a smart bomb does its sums and gets it wrong
Someone else's child dies and equities in defence rise
America, America, please hear us when we call
You got hip-hop, be-bop, hustle and bustle
You got Atticus Finch
You got Jane Russell
You got freedom of speech
You got great beaches, wildernesses and malls
Don't let the might, the Christian right, **** it all up
For you and the rest of the world
As salt resolved in the ocean
I was swallowed in God's sea,
Past faith, past unbelieving,
Past doubt, past certainty.
Suddenly in my bosom
A star shone clear and bright;
All the suns of heaven
Vanished in that star's light.
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| 09-11-2006 12:01 PM |
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scalzmoney
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Posts: 281
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 0
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Jumpy,
Sorry, but you're an idiot. Roger's stance against the war in Iraq and anywhere else is not a dishonor to the dead. Continuing bloodshed does not honor the dead either. And I know the talking points you are reading. Bush said that 'leaving before the mission is done dishonors the lives of those who died in the war.' So because some have died, we cannot bring the boys back home before they are killed ?? Come on, Jumpy, I know you are smarter than that.
As for the children, again you are using a false premise and exploiting the deaths of some to justify killing some more. Bush isn't even going after the people who are responsible for 9/11. He isn't concerned with a 5 year-old with a tear in her eye. He and his cronies are using an illegal war to profiteer all over the middle east. Blow it all up so they can charge billions to rebuild it. Wake up.
Quote:Have some understanding for the 5-year-old daugher of the accountant who felt his "tears evaporate" as he literally melted from the heat of a missile launched by the cold heartless hands of Osama bin Laden.
What are you talking about? Killing some more?
If you don't understand that agression breeds agression, that an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind, then I can't explain it to you.
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| 09-11-2006 07:34 PM |
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mabewa
Wish You Were Here
Posts: 1,894
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 11
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Jumpy is trying pretty hard to express his opinion, and it's a quite nuanced one. I really see no reason in calling him an "idiot." Also, nowhere in his post did he say "dishonor the dead." He said IGNORE the dead... that's a very different story. For the record, I think he's making a valid point, but I also think that Roger is justified in choosing to focus on the forgotten dead. Anyway, it's not something we have to insult each other over about. I got pretty mad at the person who called Roger a "coward," but Jumpy isn't making insults, he's trying to express his point of view.
Edited By mabewa on 1158045321
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| 09-11-2006 11:11 PM |
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scalzmoney
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Posts: 281
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 0
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Listen Mabewa,
Within Jumpy's post you may find truth, but I find it false. I'm not saying he can't say it if he wants to, I'm just saying he's wrong.
To say to an artist, 'hey buddy, I respect ya, but could you tone it down a little' is to silence their creative voice. That's wrong. And I'm not going to just say, 'good job, I agree with some of what you said'. I don't sit here and tell Toby Keith what to say at his shows so I'm not going to do it to Roger.
Suggesting that Roger feature images of Osama Bin Laden misses the point. He's not marching around appeasing our enemies. He knows what happened on 9/11. He lives in freakin' New York!
Isn't it worse to have a president who says 'vote for me or it will all happen again.'
Mabewa, do you really think the firemen who were poisoned at ground zero are all fans of Bush? What has been done for them? What about the Jersey Girls? Women who voted for Bush, and lost their husbands on 9/11. They had to lobby Congress to get the 9/11 Commission started. They are the families Jumpy is talking about. You lost a loved one. You don't have to kiss the president's ass forever. Do you have any opinion on the subsance of this topic or are you just going to keep telling me not to use bad words?
The fact is that Roger's been on tour for several months, doing the same show, so starting threads about it in September because suddenly you remembered 9/11 doesn't make you a genius in my book.
Jumpy also makes the fatal error of connecting 'the War' in Iraq with 9/11. Make no mistake, that's where we are doing the majority of our fighting. That's where almost as many soldiers have died as did on 9/11. What is right about that? What has it solved except to piss off the entire rest of the world at us.
Okay, so Jumpy may not be an idiot, but he's ignorant. Writing little 'open letters' that really ask for nothing, except for someone to explain to him what is really going on in this world.
Maybe Bin Laden should be shown with Bush on Roger's stage. Their families have been in business together for 30 years. Look it up.
Bush Sr. was with Osama's brother ON 9/11/01! Look it up.
Seriously, everybody. Get your facts straight, go read a book and then we'll debate Roger/Bush/9/11. Cheers!
Edited By scalzmoney on 1158059668
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| 09-12-2006 01:48 AM |
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Jumpy
Wish You Were Here
Posts: 1,966
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 4
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Scalzmoney -- One thing that I get really frustrated with saying over and over and over again is that I'm NOT a fan of Bush. Call me an "idiot" if you want, but it really makes me wonder if you or any of my critics is reading my letter entirely, or simply scimming it.
So (sigh), I'll say it again: I'm not a fan of Bush. Either of them. I didn't vote for them in 1988, 2000, or 2004.
Oh, yeah and by the way... (here I'm desperately hoping that repitition, if nothing else, can get through to you), I'm not a fan of President Bush.
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| 09-12-2006 06:04 AM |
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scalzmoney
More
Posts: 281
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 0
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Jumpy Wrote:Dear Roger,
I know that you are tech savvy, so on the off chance that you visit this site and read this message, I thought I'd write you here.
Roger, I've been a fan of your music for more than a quarter century. So believe me when I say I understand and appreciate your subject matter. I get it: War is bad.
Yet, I await the Pittsburgh stop on your current tour with mixed emotions, as I am disappointed by what I read in reviews of earlier shows on this tour. Frankly, I am angered as I think about your current show as it relates to this fifth anniversary of the 9/11 acts of war against the United States.
Please know that I am not a supporter of President Bush. In fact, I voted against him. Twice. I also believe that Bush has frequently been disingenuous when it comes to the "war on terror" -- specifically in regards to the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
At the same time, I believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was necessary and the right thing to do, given that the Taliban was giving safe haven to the plotters of the 9/11 attacks. So in short, I don't believe Bush is all bad; at times, he's had his priorities straight when crafting the difficult U.S. response to this unprecedented act of war.
I use the phrase "act of war" with a purpose, because of your mixed media messages and lyrics which suggest our President is a war criminal. If you are going to do that, why not use the opportunity to condemn those who started this war? Where are the images of Osama bin Laden? Where are the images of Mohammed Atta? Where are the images of the other pilots of those fateful 9/11 jetliners? Condemming Bush for his sometimes misguided response to acts of war is like condemming F.D.R. for Hiroshima, while giving Adolph Hitler a free pass.
You have written countless moving songs, or "stories," about your feelings related to growing up without your father who was lost in World War II. Then please, Roger, have some empathy to the motherless and fatherless victims of the 9/11 attacks. Have some feelings for the 7-year-old son of the firefighter who was crushed by tons of falling steel and concrete. Have some understanding for the 5-year-old daugher of the accountant who felt his "tears evaporate" as he literally melted from the heat of a missile launched by the cold heartless hands of Osama bin Laden. I fear that your current stance ignores many victims of this war -- those right here on U.S. soil.
Of course, as I said earlier, I'm only reacting to others' reviews of your shows, and I will wait to view it and make up my own mind. But if the reviews are accurate, I'm afraid I will be left with no other options than to give you a piece of my mind on Sept. 24. Regards,
A fan
I have read an re-read your post, Jumpy. And I get it.
My point was not to call you names, though that seems to be what you've focused on. My point was to knock down your argument with facts. I want you to try to rebut anything I've said so far if you disagree with me.
First, 9/11 is not the subject of Roger's 'Leaving Beiruit'.
Second, the war Bush started, the war on terror has nothing to do with avenging 9/11. If it did, we wouldn't be occupying Iraq.
Third, neither Roger, you, me or anyone else is required to embrace Bush and his policies or even be sympathetic to him because of 9/11. Opposing political parties almost NEVER admit to liking the current person in power.
Fourth, to disagree with and even protest the war does not 'forget', 'dishonor' or 'whatever' 9/11 and its victims (families included).
Fifth, images of Mohamed Atta or any other hijacker have no place on a screen on a stage at a rock show. What sense does that make to you? Those men are inconsiquential in the history of it all. Roger's song is not about them anyway.
Sixth, it is not wrong to criticize you. You offered up your point-of-view, you challenge Roger Waters like he has to answer to you. Sell your ticket. Don't go. No one is forcing you.
Seventh, what part of what 'review' set you off. Is it because someone claimed someone was booing? Are you frightened?Have you never heard of 'Leaving Beiruit' before now?
Last, what is a 'fan of Bush' anyway? I'm not a fan of Nick Mason, really. I do like his band Pink Floyd a lot, though.
Edited By scalzmoney on 1158071655
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| 09-12-2006 06:30 AM |
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Jumpy
Wish You Were Here
Posts: 1,966
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 4
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OK... I don't even like Bush. But I like Nick Mason. I may even be a Mason fan. He gets a lot of crap for his drumming... but I think he's OK. I really enjoy watching his work on the "Pompeii" video. :D
As for much of your previous post, I mostly agree with it, believe it or not... even your assertion that you have every right to take exception to my point of view. That's what a message board or free society is all about.
So, again having said that I mostly agree with everything in your previous post, I was going to start a point-by-point response to a couple of your enumerated points. But really, I feel like I said everything I had to say in my initial open letter to Roger.
I suppose I'll amplify a few points. One is, I can't even remember whose review I'm reacting to. As I said in my initial letter, I will wait until I see Roger in person, but I'm responding to earlier reviews posted here.
Two, I'm not "frightened" about anything related to the show. "Disappointed" was the word I chose, and I'll stick with that. I also said in another thread that, in my opinion, Roger's work loses its impact when he starts calling out people like Reagan, Haig, and "Maggie" by name. It cheapens the work and makes it less timeless. It's a big reason why, despite their very similar themes, "The Wall" is one of the most popular albums of all time, while "The Final Cut" mostly lives in obscurity -- cherished by some Floyd fans, but not music fans in general. Again, I'm disappointed.
Finally, Scalz, it's interesting that you don't find it offensive to use an image of Bush on the screen, yet you say images of Mohammed Atta "have no place on a screen on a stage at a rock show." Hmmmmmmm... what's that about? ???
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| 09-12-2006 07:07 AM |
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