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mabewa · 09-12-2006 07:47 AM

I think Scalzmoney is trying to say that Mohommed Atta isn't important enough to deserve a picture. And, I agree with that. The 9/11 bombers were all chumps, being manipulated for by a much greater evil. I think a picture of Bin Laden would be quite appropriate in a gallery of evildoers, but not Atta.

Scalzmoney--I think you're not reading people's posts carefully enough before you react. You've spent a lot of words in your post below trying to convince me of the evils of Bush, and you're totally preaching to the choir. As far as I can tell, you're more or less preaching to the choir when it comes to Jumpy, too.

In truth, I'm absolutely shocked and horrified by the damage Bush is doing to my native country and the entire world--it's like a bad dream that never stops. I'm a pretty forgiving person, and I might soften on Bush a LITTLE, if he didn't keep trying to prove an utterly bogus and thoroughly disproved link between 9/11 and Iraq, comparing opponents of the war to Nazi appeasers, and all other kinds of shameless, scumbag tactics.

Hell, to get into another issue entirely, I'm even angrier about his stance on global warming, which which I think in a few decades will, unfortunately, make terrorism look like a trifling episode in retrospect. Even the Pentagon, hardly a nest of tree-hugging environmentalists, issued a report on global warming a couple of years back that was far scarier than anything any environmental group has ever come up with, and here's Bush hiding his head in the sand and hararrasing government scientists for reporting the facts.

Make no mistake about it: history is going to squash the Bush legacy like a cockroach under the wheels of a tank. It's no longer a question of "if" but simply "when." The most horrible thing is that we are letting him gravely damage our country and the world in the meantime. Yes, he IS worse than Bin Laden--not because he's a more evil man than Bin Laden is (I think that Bin Laden is actually far more evil at heart) but simply because Bush is the head of the most powerful country in the world, and he is far beyond wrong for that position--he's an complete disaster.

With that in mind, I love Roger's "save all of our bacon, vote Democrat" thing, and then "impeach Bush" on the ass of the pig, because it hits the nail on the head. In the fairly unlikely event that the Dems win both houses of Congress (most likely, they'll win back one), Bush will probably be impeached, and that's the single best thing that could happen to Planet Earth at this point.

So, yeah, as you can see, I'm not at all fond of Bush. But, Jumpy is still making a valid point, and you're jumping on someone who is trying to use his brain, while far too many people have theirs completely turned off. One of the best things about the American left is that we actually allow people to have different points of view rather than having "talking points" which everyone repeats like robots. And, while our disunity makes us weaker in the short run, in the long run, it's exactly why America needs us so desperately at this point. We really need people to be using their brains, even if it leads them to positions that we don't agree with.

Edited By mabewa on 1158076136

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scalzmoney · 09-12-2006 08:35 AM

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong.

Jumpy is suggesting Roger put the faces of highjackers into his show.

I disagree. His show, his song is not about 9/11. That is why I am 'jumping' all over Jumpy. His assertion is moot.

Jumpy, would you like Rog to write a song about 9/11?

Jumpy it seems like you are just asking, 'Pwease, Mr. Woger Waters, don't make fun of the pwesident.'

I disagree. Its his perogative. He is not bashing Bush in the context of 9/11. He saying he's a bad leader, which you agree with, so why are we arguing?

I mean really, is that the point of your letter? To ask Roger to change his show?

My point is, you know that won't happen. But you come here anyway, to a Roger Waters message board to pick nits.

Was that the point of your 'letter'?

Is it really because you think Roger is not nice? Is that what it comes down to?

I'm open to any opinon, Mabewa, and you support yours well. But I still want to know what Jumpy expects out of his 'letter'.

Jumpy · 09-12-2006 08:50 AM

Yes, I wrote the letter to politely ask Roger to change the show. Duh! Like ... I ... said ... I heard he is tech savvy. I wouldn't be surprised if her surfs the web to learn what fans think. Is he likely to change his show because of my letter? No. Is he likely to change his show because of negative fan reactions? Probably not. In fact, any controversy resulting from this would generate publicity. And publicity helps sell tickets.

I am here "to pick nits" you say? Are you British? (You say "we" are occupying Iraq, but I can't tell where you're from.) Perhaps some of this debate is rooted in some sort of cultural difference in the way Brits and Americans react to art and public performances. I have heard the British are more restrained in their reactions.

You know scalz, I am a sports fan, too. If my favorite football team runs off a series of boneheaded plays, I will boo them. I paid for my ticket, and I feel it's my right to boo. My booing doesn't mean I don't like the team any more. That doesn't even mean I won't enjoy the game as a whole. I can express my displeasure with a portion of the event, yet leave having enjoyed the event as a whole. Those of us with a complicated range of emotions can do that.

Edited By Jumpy on 1158081098

scalzmoney · 09-12-2006 09:49 AM

It's cool, Jumpy. I still don't agree with you, but I see where you're coming from. I just think you're wasting your time.

I get mad at my favorite teams, too. I listen to sports talk radio, too. I find it interesting the way the hosts and callers will advise the coaches, owners and managers as if they have some power or more experience than them. They'll tell a coach to bench the million-dollar star of the team because they're in a slump. Well, logic should tell them that the star player puts butts in the seats and keeps the team on tv and in the papers. Unless they're injured, they play. But the fan wants to punish the guy.

You and I are fans. I have suggestions for Roger, too. Like put out a new album already! Yours are different. Whatever. I envy you going to his show. I saw Rog in '99. It was a great show. I just hope you forget the hype and enjoy it. Remember, reading about music is like dancing about architechture. Or as Billy Joel said, 'you can't get the sound from a story in a magazine.'

BTW- I'm American! Ha! Loved that you'd think I was a Brit. They're responsible for the language after all. In my line of work you have to be a stickler for proper English.

Edited By scalzmoney on 1158083741

Skol · 09-12-2006 09:51 AM

Jumpy Wrote:Yes, I wrote the letter to politely ask Roger to change the show. Duh! Like ... I ... said ... I heard he is tech savvy. I wouldn't be surprised if her surfs the web to learn what fans think. Is he likely to change his show because of my letter? No. Is he likely to change his show because of negative fan reactions? Probably not. In fact, any controversy resulting from this would generate publicity. And publicity helps sell tickets.

I am here "to pick nits" you say? Are you British? (You say "we" are occupying Iraq, but I can't tell where you're from.) Perhaps some of this debate is rooted in some sort of cultural difference in the way Brits and Americans react to art and public performances. I have heard the British are more restrained in their reactions.

You know scalz, I am a sports fan, too. If my favorite football team runs off a series of boneheaded plays, I will boo them. I paid for my ticket, and I feel it's my right to boo. My booing doesn't mean I don't like the team any more. That doesn't even mean I won't enjoy the game as a whole. I can express my displeasure with a portion of the event, yet leave having enjoyed the event as a whole. Those of us with a complicated range of emotions can do that.

If you don't like it, don't go. Simple as that.

It's Roger's show, he is the artist and he writes songs based on those individuals who don't have a voice when it comes to the western view of war. Who in the west is going to remember all the Iraqi's who were killed in cold blood because of the pack of lies our leaders, the men who we trust to rule our countries, told us.

I'm not getting involved in a Brits v Yanks slagging match but i'd say us British understand the fact that people will have opposing views to ours. I'm not painting every American as intolerant but I do think it's more rampant in the US than UK.

If Roger is the person I think he is and he does read your letter he'll just be more determined to go on with the show the way it is. He wont change it.

floydianyid · 09-12-2006 10:46 AM

Jumpy Wrote:Scalzmoney -- One thing that I get really frustrated with saying over and over and over again is that I'm NOT a fan of Bush. Call me an "idiot" if you want, but it really makes me wonder if you or any of my critics is reading my letter entirely, or simply scimming it.

So (sigh), I'll say it again: I'm not a fan of Bush. Either of them. I didn't vote for them in 1988, 2000, or 2004.

Oh, yeah and by the way... (here I'm desperately hoping that repitition, if nothing else, can get through to you), I'm not a fan of President Bush.

Its not the if you voted or if you support bush its the value of American life which seems to mean much more than the value of life from other regions.

I find Americans to be very insular, its just a perception but of course I may be wrong.

I think Roger is entitled to write and sing about whatever he likes and thats his freedom of being an artist.

Edited By floydianyid on 1158086938

Jumpy · 09-12-2006 11:05 AM

scalzmoney Wrote:I envy you going to his show. I saw Rog in '99. It was a great show. I just hope you forget the hype and enjoy it.

Funny you should say that. I have no idea why he's coming to Pittsburgh (and Cleveland). He's only coming to a handfull of cities, and he selects Pittsburgh? But I'm not complaining about that. I definitely expect to have a great time. Cool

scalzmoney · 09-12-2006 11:32 AM

floydianyid Wrote:Its not the if you voted or if you support bush its the value of American life which seems to mean much more than the value of life from other regions.

I find Americans to be very insular, its just a perception but of course I may be wrong.

I think Roger is entitled to write and sing about whatever he likes and thats his freedom of being an artist.

I don't think anyone's made a value judgement on human life here.

I feel horrible about the loss of life in Iraq, mainly because we caused it.

People say, 'but Saddam murdered his own people!' So that makes it okay to go warring over there and murder tens of thousands more?

On 9/11/01 there was a coordinated attack on our country. We mourn those lost on that day. If it seems like we are taking it hard, its because its never happened before.

~~QueenPinkWhoZep~~ · 09-12-2006 01:18 PM

pakistanifloyd Wrote:
Jumpy Wrote:
Quote:At the same time, I believe that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was necessary and the right thing to do, given that the Taliban was giving safe haven to the plotters of the 9/11 attacks. So in short, I don't believe Bush is all bad; at times, he's had his priorities straight when crafting the difficult U.S. response to this unprecedented act of war.

Did you know who backed Taliban when Russians were standing tall? Did you know the plan of attacking Iraq was already on Bush govt. table highlighted by Rumsfield even before 9/11?

[quote]
I use the phrase "act of war" with a purpose, because of your mixed media messages and lyrics which suggest our President is a war criminal.

Yes President Bush is a war criminal just like Hitler was, just like Bin Laden!

Quote:why not use the opportunity to condemn those who started this war? Where are the images of Osama bin Laden?

Do you remember Roger Waters comments when all this happened? he said when you hurt someone you expect revenge! its a common perception in people i.e things started from 9/11, noway! history is there go & study it, understand the circumstances which created terrorists like Al-Qaeda.

Quote:Roger, have some empathy to the motherless and fatherless victims of the 9/11 attacks. Have some feelings for the 7-year-old son of the firefighter who was crushed by tons of falling steel and concrete. Have some understanding for the 5-year-old daugher of the accountant who felt his "tears evaporate" as he literally melted from the heat of a missile launched by the cold heartless hands of Osama bin Laden.

Who will write for millions of non-American children who died in Bosnia, Palestine, Kashmir, Iraq, Lebanon? They died in worst conditions, how can you forget 5 yr old girl shot straight on her heart by an Israeli tank? Its just a everyday story there, unfortunately we're not concerned with that part of the World, isn't it! So, out of America, a World exists and humans exists.

Is gentleness too much for us
Should gentleness be filed along with empathy
We feel for someone else's child
Every time a smart bomb does its sums and gets it wrong
Someone else's child dies and equities in defence rise
America, America, please hear us when we call
You got hip-hop, be-bop, hustle and bustle
You got Atticus Finch
You got Jane Russell
You got freedom of speech
You got great beaches, wildernesses and malls
Don't let the might, the Christian right, **** it all up
For you and the rest of the world

I hope you never come to america.....and if you do, come pay me a visit, i have something for you....for you people who complain about the war in iraq, you should all be taken to a field and #$@$%

Sydney · 09-12-2006 01:25 PM

QueenPinkWhoZep Wrote:I hope you never come to america.....and if you do, come pay me a visit, i have something for you....for you people who complain about the war in iraq, you should all be taken to a field and #$@$%

You know what I love about America? I love that little thing called Freedom of Expression. I love that Jefferson (borrowing from Locke and Voltaire) said that all men were equally entitled to those rights to think, and express themselves, without the fear of being shot in some field. Though if you would like to live in a country where dissenters are shot in fields I can give a great list of places to go, such as Bosnia, Uganda, Sudan, The Congo, Iran, China, Cuba, and the list goes on and on....

With the exception of Cuba, I'm pretty sure you can get a plane ticket to any of those places.

Edited By Sydney on 1158110274

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Threaded Mode \| Linear Mode An Open Letter to Roger on 9/11 - Remember the motherless children
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