Wish You Were Here
Joined: Jul 2005
Quote:More unconstructiveness. I might point out that Conservatives are for small government, & Liberals are not. Therefore, your point doesn't make much sense. Liberals desire more control over the general population.
Hmmm. I thought that George Bush had destroyed this myth forever, but it seems to have lived on. Does "control over the general population" happen to include things like phone-tapping, sodomy laws, people losing their land over small quanities or marijuana, and abortion outlawed even in cases of rape and incest? Because, last time I checked, it was (many) conservatives who favored these things.
Speaking of libertarians, I know a LOT of libertarians, and the Libertarian party itself repeatedly points out that government had GROWN considerably under George Bush. Real libertarians have always denounced the "conservatives favor small government" myth. I think that the Libertarian Party is a good example of an unbiased point of view in this matter, seeing that they support neither the Democrat and Republican party.
This is a good example of why looking at everything in terms of left/right ends up distorting reality. One way of describing things in a more nuanced way: both the left and right have authoritarian and liberal wings (really, "liberal" should mean "favoring LESS government"). George Bush, for example, goes pretty far out on the authoritarian side, while Barry Goldwater went pretty far out on the libertarian side. Both are "conservatives," but they are sometimes as different from each other as the left and right are.
A lot of rural "liberals" I know actually fit the word "liberal" in that they are are against many kinds of government (they want a small military, less foreign intervention, smaller jails, an end to the drug war, less power for Homeland Security, fewer laws regulating homosexuality, abortion, etc., a less powerful presidency, to give just a few examples). They do support a social safety net, but favor keeping government relatively small by cutting back on some of the things mentioned above. They also tend to be less supportive of things like gun control. These people are definitely on the anti-authoritarian wing of liberalism. They often find a lot of agreement with libertarians and Goldwater-type conservatives on many issues, and find it easy to form alliances with those groups against Bushism (big government conservatism). Many urban liberals, however, tend to be more authoritarian.
I am not a conservative, but I do respect real, old-fashioned fiscal conservatives: people who believe in small government AND low taxes. I also don't mind "tax and spend," as long as both the taxing and spending are done relatively responsibly, and as long as they balance themselves out.
My real problem is with the new kind of "conservatism" (frankly, I don't think that it merits the label "conservative") of "borrow and spend." I understand why people oppose "tax and spend," but frankly, I'll take tax and spend over borrow and spend any day. It's just a matter of responsibility: if I'm making less money, I'll spend less. I was brought up by my "liberal" parents to live modestly and always have money in the bank. If I happen to make more money, then I don't have a problem with spending it, but that's only if I can afford spending more. Why should I expect any less out of my government?
Quote:In this context, I'd say,CONservatives are church people, Liberals are non church people.
This is an over-generalization. Yes, conservatives TEND to be more church-going than "liberals," but the US has always had a "religious left" as well, and these people are, frankly, the most charity-oriented people that I've met in the entire world. Next time you're in Seattle, you might notice that there seems to be a church on literally every block. If you visit these churches, you'll find that the majority are VERY liberal (liberation theology and all that). When I moved to Seattle as a teenager, I was involved in a number of social activities (for example, running homeless shelters, teaching English to recent immigrants), and I was constantly around a lot of people who were both very religious and very left-wing. Long story short: a substantial faction of US "liberals" are very religious, not to mention very inclined towards giving to various social causes, charities or otherwise.
Edited By mabewa on 1187577841