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Oobleck42 · 08-26-2004 02:13 PM

bak2life Wrote:
Oobleck42 Wrote:Here are a few of my squabbles with Christianity (at least the version of it that I was raised in) -

1. The concept of faith. Christianity teaches that faith is a virtue, and that we don't have to understand God in order to believe him. This sounds very innocent and nice at first, but what it really means in practice is that people are encouraged to believe something that has no supporting evidence. This, to me, is wrong. In order to truly learn and grow a person must ask questions. They must have doubts. By using this doctrine of "childlike faith" Christianity (and other religions) exempt themselves from any kind of logical debate. This is because if it were in fact subjected to logical debate it would fall apart in no time.

2. Conversion. In order to be a true Christian you must convert other people. It is not enough to be happy with your own beliefs... a true Christian will spend every waking hour trying to "spread the good news" to "lost souls". I find this attitude very condescending. In many cases it turns people into bigots.

3. The Bible. Many Christians believe that the Bible is 100% God's word. In order to believe this I would have to believe that...

a) the world was created in seven days
b) men are superior to women
c) people used to live to be nearly 1000 years old
d) the earth is only about 6000 years old
e) people coexisted with dinosaurs and fire breathing sea dragons (see the book of Job)

...and many other ridiculous things that any logical person would not believe.
You don't have to convert other people to be a Christian. We don't spend every waking moment trying to convert people. It's not the main goal. The main goal is to accept Jesus as your Savior, know he died on the cross to save you, rose on the third day, and confess your sins and ask for forgiveness. That's it, that's the main point of the Bible. It's a love letter from God to us basically asking us to trust in him. You don't have to be a super Christian or whatever they call it. That's nonsense if someone tells you that. This is really the first time in my life I have even tried to help lead other people. But it's something on my heart, that I WANTED to do. Why is it so hard to believe the world was created in 7 days? God can do anything. Is rising from the dead not enough to prove he could create the world in 7 days?

You speak as if Christ rising from the dead is an accepted fact when it isn't. I'm not even convinced that he actually existed so why would I believe he rose from the dead?

It's hard for me to believe that the world was created in seven days because all scientific evidence points out that life has evolved over a period of billions of years. This is not just an unprovable statement that I've chosen to believe, like the Bible's claim is. It's backed up by facts and research and we are learning more about it every day. And what about all of the other things I mentioned that were in the Bible? Surely if there are things in there that are OBVIOUSLY wrong, I can't trust the rest of it?

And I wasn't saying that ALL Christians spend ALL of their time trying to convert people. But you said yourself that you ENJOY telling people about Christ. Of course you do. You wouldn't be a true believer if you didn't, would you? If you honestly believe that you bear news that is a matter of life or death how can you do anything BUT try to convince people to see "the truth"?

Possibly Related

Space Cadet · 08-26-2004 02:23 PM

Religion on forums = unfriendly disputes.

:(

aserty · 08-26-2004 02:30 PM

I don't believe in God, simply because it depresses me. But interestingly enough, most psychologists say religion is good for people becasue it generally provides a feeling of "well-being."

Also, studies show that marijuana and religion have similar mental affects on people.

Btw: Saying the Bible mentions God so he must exsist is also a dumb arguement, that's like saying the earth is flat because people 700 years ago wrote it down.

Edited By aserty on 1093559510

wowser · 08-26-2004 02:31 PM

slygirl Wrote:
Pink Prism Wrote:Lets stop this discussion. You really can't tell people to think different about religion and politics, the only thing that may happen is that you will be angry with each other.
yea, perhaps you r right. i guess ill PM or IM oobleck and bak2life as suggested.
BTW.....what is a ELP sig?? what is ELP?? i saw wowser say it. dont know what that is.

Emerson Lake & Palmer, slygirl :laugh:

#

I also share Oob's problem with Christianity being a religion in which the 'word must be spread' to save others. This belief has done enormous harm, such as in North America (introducing Native Americans to the religion "a religion where we can't have sex and have fun?" No thanks, thought the Natives! Also, it has done great harm in Africa - missionaries coming and leaving communities piously believing in what they were told, which in turn has helped the Aids crisis SPIRAL (not wanting to use contraception on religious grounds etc)

So.. ya... It can be quite a headache

Edited By wowser on 1093559591

slygirl · 08-26-2004 02:35 PM

Emerson Lake & Palmer, slygirl :laugh:

#

I also share Oob's problem with Christianity being a religion in which the 'word must be spread' to save others. This belief has done enormous harm, such as in North America (introducing Native Americans to the religion "a religion where we can't have sex and have fun?" No thanks, thought the Natives! Also, it has done great harm in Africa - missionaries coming and leaving communities piously believing in what they were told, which in turn has helped the Aids crisis SPIRAL (not wanting to use contraception on religious grounds etc)

So.. ya... It can be quite a headache[/quote]
:laugh: :laugh:
if i wasnt so tired i mightve been able to figure that out.

Edited By slygirl on 1093559820

Steve Hill · 08-26-2004 03:16 PM

Oobleck42 Wrote:
bak2life Wrote:
Oobleck42 Wrote:Here are a few of my squabbles with Christianity (at least the version of it that I was raised in) -

1. The concept of faith. Christianity teaches that faith is a virtue, and that we don't have to understand God in order to believe him. This sounds very innocent and nice at first, but what it really means in practice is that people are encouraged to believe something that has no supporting evidence. This, to me, is wrong. In order to truly learn and grow a person must ask questions. They must have doubts. By using this doctrine of "childlike faith" Christianity (and other religions) exempt themselves from any kind of logical debate. This is because if it were in fact subjected to logical debate it would fall apart in no time.

2. Conversion. In order to be a true Christian you must convert other people. It is not enough to be happy with your own beliefs... a true Christian will spend every waking hour trying to "spread the good news" to "lost souls". I find this attitude very condescending. In many cases it turns people into bigots.

3. The Bible. Many Christians believe that the Bible is 100% God's word. In order to believe this I would have to believe that...

a) the world was created in seven days
b) men are superior to women
c) people used to live to be nearly 1000 years old
d) the earth is only about 6000 years old
e) people coexisted with dinosaurs and fire breathing sea dragons (see the book of Job)

...and many other ridiculous things that any logical person would not believe.
You don't have to convert other people to be a Christian. We don't spend every waking moment trying to convert people. It's not the main goal. The main goal is to accept Jesus as your Savior, know he died on the cross to save you, rose on the third day, and confess your sins and ask for forgiveness. That's it, that's the main point of the Bible. It's a love letter from God to us basically asking us to trust in him. You don't have to be a super Christian or whatever they call it. That's nonsense if someone tells you that. This is really the first time in my life I have even tried to help lead other people. But it's something on my heart, that I WANTED to do. Why is it so hard to believe the world was created in 7 days? God can do anything. Is rising from the dead not enough to prove he could create the world in 7 days?
You speak as if Christ rising from the dead is an accepted fact when it isn't. I'm not even convinced that he actually existed so why would I believe he rose from the dead?

It's hard for me to believe that the world was created in seven days because all scientific evidence points out that life has evolved over a period of billions of years. This is not just an unprovable statement that I've chosen to believe, like the Bible's claim is. It's backed up by facts and research and we are learning more about it every day. And what about all of the other things I mentioned that were in the Bible? Surely if there are things in there that are OBVIOUSLY wrong, I can't trust the rest of it?

And I wasn't saying that ALL Christians spend ALL of their time trying to convert people. But you said yourself that you ENJOY telling people about Christ. Of course you do. You wouldn't be a true believer if you didn't, would you? If you honestly believe that you bear news that is a matter of life or death how can you do anything BUT try to convince people to see "the truth"?

I believe there was a "Jesus" character around at the time as too many texts from different places refer to this person, when they have nothing to gain from writing this down. However, I believe that he was merely a preacher with a good knowledge of science. There have been many athiest scientists over the years trying to explain all the "miracles" and the vast majority have been done sucessfully.

e.g. The Burning Bush - In the middle east, there is a certain type of Bush that produces methane gas in reasonably large amounts. By throwing one stone onto another next to the bush, a spark is created igniting it.

The parting of the red sea - the red sea is at a certain level every year where it is possible to walk across, before it rises suddenly. We are led to believe that the Egyptians followed the Isrealites near instantly and were drowned, but we know that the bible is prone to exaggeration as stated above. If Moses was nearby for all those years, isn't it possible that he worked out the timings and made sure they got across safely and just before the tides rose again?

And as for the ten commandments, good as they are for a decent moral foundation so don't have a go at me for criticising them, but are you telling me that Moses disappears every day to pray alone and then after some time a storm comes and these tablets appear out of nowhere? He was merely assuring his authority over his followers.

But this is my interpretation of events and I respect others have differing views, but please don't tell me I am wrong because an innacurate book tells you so.

wowser · 08-26-2004 04:08 PM

wowser Wrote:
slygirl Wrote:
Pink Prism Wrote:Lets stop this discussion. You really can't tell people to think different about religion and politics, the only thing that may happen is that you will be angry with each other.
yea, perhaps you r right. i guess ill PM or IM oobleck and bak2life as suggested.
BTW.....what is a ELP sig?? what is ELP?? i saw wowser say it. dont know what that is.
Emerson Lake & Palmer, slygirl :laugh:

#

I also share Oob's problem with Christianity being a religion in which the 'word must be spread' to save others. This belief has done enormous harm, such as in North America (introducing Native Americans to the religion "a religion where we can't have sex and have fun?" No thanks, thought the Natives! Also, it has done great harm in Africa - missionaries coming and leaving communities piously believing in what they were told, which in turn has helped the Aids crisis SPIRAL (not wanting to use contraception on religious grounds etc)

So.. ya... It can be quite a headache

just making sure i dont get ignored with things being on a new page

Pink Prism · 08-26-2004 09:42 PM

slygirl Wrote:
wowser Wrote:
Emerson Lake & Palmer, slygirl :laugh:

#

I also share Oob's problem with Christianity being a religion in which the 'word must be spread' to save others. This belief has done enormous harm, such as in North America (introducing Native Americans to the religion "a religion where we can't have sex and have fun?" No thanks, thought the Natives! Also, it has done great harm in Africa - missionaries coming and leaving communities piously believing in what they were told, which in turn has helped the Aids crisis SPIRAL (not wanting to use contraception on religious grounds etc)

So.. ya... It can be quite a headache

:laugh: :laugh:
if i wasnt so tired i mightve been able to figure that out.[/quote]
:D yea, Emerson, Lake and Palmer. They are the best. Very good at least Cool

Keith Emerson is the biggest genius ever on the keyboard.

Edited By Pink Prism on 1093585371

Rogacz · 08-27-2004 01:23 AM

Just don`t forget that a man who belives in god not always shines, and atheist isn`t asshole from begining, just because he sais 'no god'.
There are a lot old people in my country who after hearing a man who says 'i don`t believe in god' shouts 'heretic' or 'satan' or whatever and close the door with big bang.
That`s weird, cause the same person, who closed the door could do big businnes, get any kind of help from this 'atheist' not even knowing, he doasn`t pray, and when he says 'my actions is god', a lot of people turns around from him.
This hurts.

Pink Prism · 08-27-2004 10:28 AM

people are just so damn afraid of dying, i guess. "Don't take the risk, because eventually you will face god at the end, and then you will be judged".

Geez... glare

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